Is ms w/wonky wideband dangerous?
 

The crap wideband lc1 I have keeps loosing its calibration and I am needing to recalibrate it often. I thought maybe I fixed it but still is giving me issues. I read that auto tune requires the wide band. Now I just started wondering, if at some point when i'm driving the car, if the wideband goes wonky, can it hurt my motor because ms tries to compensate?

How do you know the LC1 is losing its calibration?

If you're allowing an inaccurate wideband to autotune your car you could definitely blow it up.

If you've already got a solid tune and you're not actively autotuning the car, then your probably ok. Depending on how severe and frequent the loss of calibration you probably want to decrease the EGO correction limits or turn EGO off completely so it won't throw the tune off when you're in closed loop.

I don't know the terminology but all of a sudden the afrs jump around and maxs out at bottom and top and blinks 7.4. Then after I redue the free air calibration it seems to work perfectly. It looses calibration randomly when off and when running. I Guess I can try to run a separate line from the battery with a relay.

I was planning to install my msp today so I was planning to use autotune. The msp does come with a base tune so I can still hook it up and get the base timing set up. Shouod I hook up the wideband and just disable it like you said? It's a innovate btw

Have you fixed your wideband install or is it still chucked in there with a dozen butt connectors?

its either a bad install or the sensor is dead.

Could be both, but i'm 99% sure that the install is bad. It looks bad. He should feel bad.

I cleaned it up a little bit and relocated the unit to under the radio area but yes, I still have the butt lines. But I'm getting good voltage.. My electrician friend who also has a wideband said it should be fine and that the 12v is solid and that adding a line from the battery is a unneeded complexity. :dunno:

I'm guessing your electrician friend wires houses? Your wiring sucks big time... Why not do a proper wiring job then ask.

Your's for reference

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1427226971

It's ugly yes, but is my racer friend wrong when he says the butt connectors are sufficient? Is he also wrong about using the snap in wire taps? I used the snap wire tap things to power from the cigarette lighter.

Just to clarify... you're using "vamp clamps" to power your wideband from the cigarette lighter?

Then get your racer friend to fix it and stop wasting our time. If your going to do things, do them right or expect to get butt hurt here.

And to your question #2 & 3 no they aren't. You seem to want to do things 'temporary' then ask why shit doesn't work after. Then argue with everyone about it after the fact.

The :facepalm: is strong with this one.

Your wideband will never work if you leave it wired like that. The LC-1 is highly sensitive to poor grounding, and you have it teed off the radio or something equally kludged. Did you read the directions that came with it?

A wideband controller is influenced significantly by minor differences in electricity. Butt connectors and vampire connectors can offer a greater resistance than soldering the connection. Choosing a circuit for powering the unit that will not fluctuate by having a load variation is important.

It didn't come with directions, I bought it used. And the wires were a mess when I was shipped the part.

Okay well I'll have to do a thorough rewiring. As of right now, I have the ms all hooked up and in but now the damn junker laptop is not recognizing the connection to the ms :crx: I'm setting it for narrow band for now. So now i gotta figure out the syncing problem

You are wrong, as in without a doubt wrong. If you were to complete the simple task of downloading the user manual for your wideband you would see how wrong you are.

And you are dumb as hell for what you are doing to the poor car.

That shit it terrible. Fix the ghetto spaghetti. Put the wideband on the same power supply at the ECU so you have no ground offset.

If it still acts flaky once you've fixed the half-assery then we'll go from there.

I did download various install manuals but they did not match what I had. The colors were different or had other stuff. The thing also was missing two parts. I didn't think it was going to come all fucked up. I actually found the diagram off of here. In terms of what wire is going where, it's going to the right places but yeah, ill clean it up.

raja

Told ya so? :dunno:

I had the same problem with needing to recalibrate. If you connected the lc-1 to a computer and logged I bet you a dollar you would see a timing error. Upgrading to an alpha firmware that can be found with google fixed the issue for me.

Thanks for the tip, I'm gonna look it up now

Indeed the install looks bad. Run a direct 12 volt from the battery to the lc1.

Oh lordy I didn't get the wire to plug the lc1 to a computer. That's another missing item, and $12 :/

I'd rather not have him start posting about why his battery can't hold a charge.

Wrong. You want the power coming from the same E&H field as the ECU, with its inherent ground offset.

... and another thread no doubt. :facepalm:

:bowrofl:

LC-1 and 2 have this annoying feature where when they don't get 12v while warming up they freeze. Innovate says to run a relay to the battery to get the cleanest and most stable power possible. Ground to the ECU for a clean signal.

Never had that issue with my LC-1. Or maybe my shit just doesn't drop below 12v when cranking? (Unlikely.)

I get where you're coming from, however it's more important to do it right than what some idiot wrote as an app note.

voltage drops to like 9v when cranking. it doesn't matter if youre running a relay directly off the battery.

if you dont have at least 12v when warming up, then you have bigger issues than with your WBo2 wiring.

You might just be lucky. I found quite a few threads about it and it was an almost daily problem for me. Relay from the fuse box fixed it and I haven't had it since.

I had it wired off the ECU. And ran into issues.

You probably had it into a circuit that cut power entirely when cranking.

I can actually see my AFRs while cranking.

The AEM stepper motor boost gauges will never work right unless you have them into a source that doesn't cut during cranking.

the white/red wire is active during cranking [that would be silly if the ECU cut out during cranking]. but again, it drops below 10v during cranking on most cars.

the LC1 cuts out at 11.5v and below.

therefore: no afrs while cranking.

Yet another reason to avoid Innovate's widebands

I'd rather sacrifice being able to log AFRs on startup to get a full 7.35-24:1 AFR range in a full 5v sweep vs the coveted 10-18AFR range in only a 4.25v sweep and whose actual readings don't even match the published outputs which requires a lot effort just to get matching values in your EMS all on a big ugly integrated gauge with a refresh rate so slow it makes it hard to read.

A 10-18AFR range is especially useful for those running e85...

Is this where MT swings back to loving Innovate after the 12 months or so where MT officially loved the UEGOs?

Shit's confusing to keep track of.

it never stopped loving it; we just have rogue members.

love my aem because it doesn't take 5 billion years to "warm up" like a retarded piece of crap

lol

it's like 20 seconds at most. I think the Lc2 and MTxL is better in that regard.

It's like... 7 seconds for my LC-1. I've seriously never understood that bitching.

The reality is that i've used many different widebands and they all did the job i asked of them.

My biggest complaint about the Innovates is that they're horrendously ugly.

I guess I fell out of love with mine when it worked perfectly for 2 years and 30,000 miles and then shit the bed when I replaced the sensor after those 2 years. Proper grounds, proper +12v, and it still wouldn't work. I think I threw two or three $65 sensors at it before I gave up and threw it away. The AEM doesn't need free-air calbration every 17 seconds and it doesn't need to be grounded through the split hairs of a grass-fed organic unicorn in order to provide a reliable, accurate AFR figure.

I guess I prefer the functional wideband to the finnicky, unreliable one, but to each his own.

Haven't calibrated the sensor in my LC-1 in 5 years. And proud!

Calibration is a privilege, not a punishment.

agreed. on all counts.
my only exp is with the MTX-L though. it seemed to be fine aside from the infuriating "warm up"
That was exclusively the reason I went back to aem
crossing your fingers and hoping your car isn't running rich/lean for 5 years is a priviledge?

sensors wear over time and IIRC innovate is the ONLY wbo2 on the market that actually cares enough to address the degradation.

having no sensor calibration is not a benefit.

it's a way for companies to say: we don't actually care about the accuracy of our devices over time.




Ive read things about the AEM that says each has it's own tuned bias resistor to make sure that the sensor its paired with actually reads accurately. This suggests that the calibration will change when the sensor degrades/gets sooted/or is replaced.

I've never had more trouble trying to get TS to match a gauge value than with the AEM Uego. The calibration is never close to the published values in the manual. I've seen some with almost a 2AFR difference between the gauge and TS--towards the too lean side (where MS think it's actually rich enough but the gauge shows lean).

you should only have to free-air calibrate a innovate once in a blue-moon to make sure that you're still in check. the heater warmup makes sure the sensor is still functioning within spec and will toss errors if not.

^^^this. Its like iPhone and android. Apple sacraficies the ability to have complete control over a device in the name of ease of use.

^This. One lets you compensate for errors to gain an accurate measurement and the other says, "Meh, it's not our engine." It's similar to flying a light plane when you set the altimeter to field elevation prior to taking flight. It's better than saying, "the ground is around here plus or minus a hundred feet," and just being ok with that.

it's not like either is hard to install.

Both the Lc2/MTX-l and AEM require three wires to install and all should be wired exactly the same.

Okay so heres a exerpt from MSPNPPro install manual.

The MS3-Pro can also work with most aftermarket wideband oxygen sensor controllers. You will need to install the controller according to the directions that came with it, and connect the controller’s analog output wire to the MS3-Pro’s O2 input wire. If the wideband controller has a ground specifically
DIYAutoTune.com MS3-Pro manual version 1.030, firmware 1.3.4, 2/27/2015 Page 39
4.4 Other sensors 4 WIRING
for its analog output, it connects to the MS3-Pro sensor ground wire. Do not connect any wires labeled “serial output”, “digital output” or similar to the MS3-Pro, or connect any other sort of wideband ground to the MS3-Pro.

*Innovate systems have multiple analog outputs; this is the recommended default.
The above list is not intended to be a complete list of what wideband controllers will work with the MS3-Pro; it will work with many other ones not listed. As long as the wideband has a 0-5 volt analog output, and you can obtain the specifications for its output, you can make it work with the MS3-Pro.
Additional narrow band O2 sensors or wideband controllers may be wired to the spare analog input wires.

Literally has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1427308500

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5...o/IMG_0301.JPG

I too wired my MTX-L off the DIYPNP hot thru crank signal, but then I followed the directions like Aidan and had much better results, lot smaller offset. I eventually went digital, and that works like a boss.

For some reason my MTX-L will stay up through cranking assuming I wait 15 seconds for it to warm up before trying, I had no idea this was so special. I don't really care now, I'm pretty happy with my startup and ASE, most days...

That's different from the UEGO how, exactly?

I HAVE the option to calibrate my shit. I'm just lazy.

It's really easy. I think I read a post Braineak had put up a while back. On an open road going a good speed and rpm's, cut the engine off but keep it in gear. Then push the gas peddle and hit the reset button. Being in gear and pushing the gas funnels plenty of fresh air through the exhaust. This way you avoid taking out the actual sensor. This trick has proved invaluable for someone who's sensor is needing calibration every other day lol

wtf? I'd never suggest anything like that.

oh, um i don't know then. The name had brain or something.

BTW, you shouldn't do this on a curvy road btw!

What the actual fuck are you talking about?

Opening the throttle while parts are moving, expecting pistons to still vac in air to push out fuel.

Why not spend 20mins to calibrate it correctly? :dunno:

Have you done it at least once correctly? (with your used dirty sensor)