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Old 12-10-2012, 12:44 PM   #1
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Default Stock ECU fuel management

I will be installing a stock MSM turbo to my '04 Miata LS. This will be a entry level turbo upgrade. I want to run ~ 7-8 psi boost and maintain my stock ECU. What will be my fuel/ignition concerns and the most cost effective way to address them? Thanks.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:27 PM   #2
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Your fuel / ignition concerns will be that the stock ECU is woefully incapable of compensating for boost.

While you can absolutely pile on several bandaids to prevent it from blowing up, by the time you've actually managed to build a halfway drivable car that doesn't buck when you transition into boost or blow smoke every time you shift you could have just bought yourself a standalone ECU for the same price (or less...).
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:34 PM   #3
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Phil, where do you live, and what are the emission-testing requirements, if any?

The most cost-effective solution depends largely on your answer to the above, as well as to how comfortable you are with electronics, software, engine-tuning, etc.

At the low end of the scale, you could install a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator (such as the complete BEGI fuel system, with FPR and pump) and just throw on an adjustable crank trigger wheel so you can dial in a few degrees of static retard.

Moving up in the world, there are a number of piggyback solutions which, to some degree or another, work.

Then at the upper end of the scale you have "standalone" ECUs, which completely replace the stock ECU and can properly drive larger injectors, integrate feedback from a wideband exhaust gas sensor, etc. Megasquirt, Hydra, etc., fall in this this category.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:02 PM   #4
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Phil, where do you live, and what are the emission-testing requirements, if any?

The most cost-effective solution depends largely on your answer to the above, as well as to how comfortable you are with electronics, software, engine-tuning, etc.

At the low end of the scale, you could install a rising-rate fuel pressure regulator (such as the complete BEGI fuel system, with FPR and pump) and just throw on an adjustable crank trigger wheel so you can dial in a few degrees of static retard.

Moving up in the world, there are a number of piggyback solutions which, to some degree or another, work.

Then at the upper end of the scale you have "standalone" ECUs, which completely replace the stock ECU and can properly drive larger injectors, integrate feedback from a wideband exhaust gas sensor, etc. Megasquirt, Hydra, etc., fall in this this category.
I didn't think a rrfpr would work on a '04 miata fuel system (no return line).

How about the FM Voodoo box w/ crank trigger wheel?
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilM View Post
I will be installing a stock MSM turbo to my '04 Miata LS. This will be a entry level turbo upgrade. I want to run ~ 7-8 psi boost and maintain my stock ECU. What will be my fuel/ignition concerns and the most cost effective way to address them? Thanks.
Independent of ecu choice you will need larger injectors, map sensor and WB .
If you want to keep the stock ecu then emanage blue with an autotune/clamp is an elegant and cost effective solution. My second hand blue and diy clamp cost less than 100$ and works well up to 460 cc injectors.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
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throw on an adjustable crank trigger wheel so you can dial in a few degrees of static retard.
I'm not so sure that would be a good idea on a '04.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:24 PM   #7
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I've got a complete chassis and engine harness plus ECU from a 04 MSM sitting in my garage. If you want to figure out the wiring and find all the sensors, I'd sell it to you cheap. That'll get you an OBDII compliant ECU, if that's your thing.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:58 PM   #8
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I've got a complete chassis and engine harness plus ECU from a 04 MSM sitting in my garage. If you want to figure out the wiring and find all the sensors, I'd sell it to you cheap. That'll get you an OBDII compliant ECU, if that's your thing.
Thanks, but a little more than what I want to take on.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:12 PM   #9
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I would suggest a ms2 from Reverant. Trust me, its worth it, and only a couple hundred more than the stupid band aids would cost you
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:21 PM   #10
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You actually got a lot of good answers from these guys. I'm surprised you didn't get instaban.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:07 PM   #11
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Default MSM turbo fuel management

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Originally Posted by slmhofy View Post
You actually got a lot of good answers from these guys. I'm surprised you didn't get instaban.
I see in your signature your using the Reverant MS2 on your 04 MSM Miata. Did you have much experience with tuning or are you taking it to a dyno?

p.s. I see you went with the Turbosmart BPV...the 38 mm is about 1 1/2". How much boost are you running?
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilM View Post
I didn't think a rrfpr would work on a '04 miata fuel system (no return line).
You've done your homework.

It does work, you just have to place the aux pump up front under the hood, and create a recirculating loop, in which the RRFPR's dump line feeds back into the aux pump inlet.



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I'm not so sure that would be a good idea on a '04.
Ah, yeah. I forgot about you late-model guys with your wiggly camshafts.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:25 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by PhilM View Post
I see in your signature your using the Reverant MS2 on your 04 MSM Miata. Did you have much experience with tuning or are you taking it to a dyno?

p.s. I see you went with the Turbosmart BPV...the 38 mm is about 1 1/2". How much boost are you running?
Straight up. Reverant pretty much hooks it the F up. He builds you the MS to spec, installs the base map which is like 90% good from the get go, emails you the firmware required, and gives exceptional instructions on how to get everything running. AND offers great tech support.

EDIT: Given that. I have learned a lot over the past 6 months with the unit and how to tune with not a lot of prior knowledge.

And I went with the larger BPV because I'm running a much larger turbo and the forge wasn't cutting it. Plus I'm running 15-16psi. And the motor is coming out thursday for new rods and I'm going to be bumping it up to 20-23ish psi afterwards.

Last edited by slmhofy; 12-11-2012 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:21 AM   #14
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Default '04 Miata to MSM turbo conversion

Since I am adding the MSM Miata turbo to my N/A '04 Miata, I have only (1) IAT sensor available to insert into the intake piping (I think the stock MSM turbo setup has (2) IAT sensors). Should the (1) IAT sensor in my setup go right after the MAF on the coldside (before turbo) or in the TB inlet pipe (charge pipe)? Shouldn't the MAF always be before the turbo on the coldside inlet pipe?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:27 AM   #15
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It depends on what you run for engine management. With an MS you don't need the maf at all anymore, and best place for the ait is between the ic and tb
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:55 AM   #16
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I would go with an MS if I were you and a reverant built one sounds like your best option. That is what I run in my MSM and I had no experience with soldering, wiring, or tuning before I bought my MS2 from rev. He sets them up so well that if you can't install it in a weekend then you shouldn't be working on cars.

My car runs well and I picked up a **** ton of midrange over the stock MSM ecu.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:47 PM   #17
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Default 04 N/A Miata conversion to MSM turbo

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It depends on what you run for engine management. With an MS you don't need the maf at all anymore, and best place for the ait is between the ic and tb
I can eliminate the MAF completely by going with a Reverant MS2 setup? Use the TBS for mapping?
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:55 PM   #18
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Yes.
Not the tps, but the map and ait sensors.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:12 PM   #19
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Thanks, but a little more than what I want to take on.
Its a little more than I want to take on either. I had a complete engine/turbo/intercooler from an 04 MSM lined up so I could do a legal turbo swap in my 00, but the dude sold it out from under me. Unless another one falls in my lap, I'll be sitting on this stuff for a while.

I've got a DIYPNP in my 00 and I wish I'd held out for one of Reverants enhanced MS2 units. He builds a great product and consistently gets positive comments. They are more expensive, but the extra features are pretty bauce.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:38 PM   #20
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I can eliminate the MAF completely by going with a Reverant MS2 setup? Use the TBS for mapping?
With a MS, you can pretty much delete all emissions related equipment as well. Can clean up the engine bay really nicely.
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