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Old 03-12-2010, 04:45 AM   #1
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Default Using a modified honda/dsm ecu

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Here is the thing with these other options though. You are paying for only the fuel and spark control with rewired ECU's. You mise well get yourself one of those Apexi piggy backs if your going that route, it would be nearly as powerful.

The power in the Adaptronic is the other features. You are not paying for just a spark and fuel map control alone. You are paying for fuel autotune, boost by gear, traction control, launch control, fully configurable auxiliary outputs, turbo timer functions, electronic blow off valve functions, electronic wastegate functions. An electronic wastegate controller alone is what 300? The honda ECU's can't do those things, an eprom on the stock ECU can't do those things.

Having gone down the road of splice here, bandaid there, it gets much more complicated much more quickly as you want to add features. Even if you did switch to one of these other systems the learning curve and MPG, all that, is still going to be dependent your ability to tune, and I would bet they don't have fuel auto tune to help you when you start out. You would literally start with a blank slate, blank fuel maps, and probably have to work something really different into the triggering mechanism of a cross ECU swap as well.

I'm obviously a supporter of an aftermarket solution to this because I sell it, but from any point of view the stock ECU EPROM or the cross brand ECU swap is going to be tough, custom, and take alot of expertise. I've been dealing with standalones for around 5 years now, and I wouldn't even want to try to do something like that. I could see Matt doing something crazy and getting it right, but it would be extremely complicated and for what gain? You spend 200 hours on figuring out how to get that thing in and even at minimum wage you could of bought an Adaptronic.


Hondata S300

Main features:

Fits inside the ECU
Made in USA
Built on the proven s100/s200 code base
USB connection for speed and compatibility
SManager Windows based software for parameter & table editing, calibration uploading and datalogging.
Real-time updating of ECU
Built in calibrations for common engine combinations
Built in datalogging to a laptop
On board datalogging memory (2 MB memory, 20-60 minutes datalogging)
Adjustment for different sized injectors, with overall fuel trim.
Configurable for any MAP sensor (to at 5 Bar and above)
TPS based table lookup for ITBs
Engine protection from over boost.
Expanded fuel and ignition tables, both in rpm and load, to 60 lbs boost and 11,000 rpm (these are not the upper limits)
Launch control with anti-lag
Full throttle shift

Three multi purpose outputs for nitrous control or similar
Supports lambda tracing from a wideband o2 (PLX wideband recommended)
PWM output for boost control
Dual tables for high/low octane calibrations etc.
Two analog inputs for wideband, EGTs etc.

Travis a little reading might be in order before going off on what other ecus can't do. You should know that. The Crome rom mentioned appears to be able to do most of those things as well. I know they might not have all of the features but every ecu has its trade offs.

Some of us talking about this have been working with standalone ecus for more than 5 years...who cares.

Doing this definitely won't be plug and play but it won't be any worse wiring wise. Other than figuring out the triggering, which only has to be done once, I don't see how its any different than any other stand alone. As for autotuning, its nice but not critical. The mega squirt doesn't have it and I'm fairly certain there are more of them than there are adaptronics. You could easily port map over from another ecu, like when some of us went from other ecus to the adaptronic.

So let let the alternate OEM ecu/chipping/flashing discussion begin!

Possibilities so far:
Hondata
Crome
DSM reflash/chip?
GM (4-banger ecu?)

We already know y8s like the pretty colors of the Crome tuner. Does anyone have any experience with others? Maybe use a GM ecu? Are those as easy to change as the ones used on the v8s?
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:12 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboRoach View Post
Hondata S300
As for autotuning, its nice but not critical. The mega squirt doesn't have it and I'm fairly certain there are more of them than there are adaptronics. You could easily port map over from another ecu, like when some of us went from other ecus to the adaptronic.
You can't critizise someone for not researching when you don't yourself :P

MegaSquirt does have Autotune!
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Old 03-12-2010, 05:20 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
You can't critizise someone for not researching when you don't yourself :P

MegaSquirt does have Autotune!
**** I thought MS autotune was through TunerStudio/MegaTune.... I didn't realize that it was built into the hardware. Maybe I'll just edit that out...
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:49 AM   #4
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Oh, sorry yeah it's through the software, I *****umed that's how the Adaptronic did it too
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by richyvrlimited View Post
Oh, sorry yeah it's through the software, I *****umed that's how the Adaptronic did it too
nope, adaptronic is pretty much always making changes to your fuel map.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:46 PM   #6
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nope, adaptronic is pretty much always making changes to your fuel map.
You can tell it not to. I turn it off once I get decent map.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:56 PM   #7
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The reason I throw out the DSM ECU as a contender is simply because the early 90-93 DSMs use a nearly identical electrical system to a miata's. I'd almost be willing to bet you could re-pin one and get it to fire a miata engine. The CAS and ignitors appear to be nearly identical, and the only thing I can see possibly needing to change would be the coolant temp sensor(I'm fairly sure you use a GM IAT with the speed density software).
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:10 PM   #8
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Doesn't the Hondata have a downside wherein you need to restart it whenever you download changes to the map?
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Ciesielski View Post
The reason I throw out the DSM ECU as a contender is simply because the early 90-93 DSMs use a nearly identical electrical system to a miata's. I'd almost be willing to bet you could re-pin one and get it to fire a miata engine. The CAS and ignitors appear to be nearly identical, and the only thing I can see possibly needing to change would be the coolant temp sensor(I'm fairly sure you use a GM IAT with the speed density software).
That would be awesome. Especially if the idle control valve is similar.

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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
Doesn't the Hondata have a downside wherein you need to restart it whenever you download changes to the map?
On the features list it has "Real-time updating of ECU". That sounds like it should update while running, but I only see that listed for the s300 upgrade.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:24 PM   #10
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I feel the need to answer the inevitable "Why?" before it hits.


The answer: Just ******* because. The novelty would be cool.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:43 PM   #11
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Screw s300, its really expensive. Crome is free and has higher resolution maps.

s300 has "real time tuning" in that as youre driving you can make a change, hit the upload button and the tune is changed. No hiccups. s300 is a daughter board with a UBB port that plugs into the stock ECU's chip socket.

With crome, its burning a ROM chip and then putting that into the socket. But, you dont have to start and stop constantly because there are many available emulator/ dataloggers. So you can do real time tuning just like s300 on the emulator. Then when you get home you can burn the tune onto a chip and stick it in the ECU.

All this stuff needed for tuning crome is dirt cheap
and you get maps like this

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(Thats crome in the window in the foreground. s300 is opened in the background)
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Screw s300, its really expensive. Crome is free and has higher resolution maps.

s300 has "real time tuning" in that as youre driving you can make a change, hit the upload button and the tune is changed. No hiccups. s300 is a daughter board with a UBB port that plugs into the stock ECU's chip socket.

With crome, its burning a ROM chip and then putting that into the socket. But, you dont have to start and stop constantly because there are many available emulator/ dataloggers. So you can do real time tuning just like s300 on the emulator. Then when you get home you can burn the tune onto a chip and stick it in the ECU.
Thats awesome. You said its cheap. How cheap?
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:53 PM   #13
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Heres basically what Im thinking.

Honda made their cars pretty simple when it comes to sensors.
Literally all you need is the distributor, MAP, IAT, ECT, and youre running.
So what Im thinking is if you get a honda distributor to work, youre set.

Heres an example of a honda obd-1 dizzy:


So what if you (very precisely) modified a valve cover, that has a flat peice across the front that would allow the dizzy to bolt up, then modified one of the cam gears to have an end on it that would drive the distributor.


I know many of you guys see a distributor as a downgrade, but there are 600+hp hondas using stock honda distributors and chipped ECUs.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
nope, adaptronic is pretty much always making changes to your fuel map.
The autotune feature is decent in getting you a ROUGH overall curve so you don't have to shape the damn thing cell by cell and waste hours, but after you have a semi-decent map I'd suggest turning that **** off. Mine was all fine and dandy til I worked out a decent map. Being an OCD ---- person that I am I reset the cells to "untuned" and basically had it double check itself and it FUUUUUUCKED up the map big time.

/threadjack
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Heres basically what Im thinking.

Honda made their cars pretty simple when it comes to sensors.
Literally all you need is the distributor, MAP, IAT, ECT, and youre running.
So what Im thinking is if you get a honda distributor to work, youre set.

Heres an example of a honda obd-1 dizzy:


So what if you (very precisely) modified a valve cover, that has a flat peice across the front that would allow the dizzy to bolt up, then modified one of the cam gears to have an end on it that would drive the distributor.


I know many of you guys see a distributor as a downgrade, but there are 600+hp hondas using stock honda distributors and chipped ECUs.
So you are saying to perhaps cut a slot into the cam gear bolt to allow the shaft to fit in?
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by TurboRoach View Post
Thats awesome. You said its cheap. How cheap?
Youre looking at the price of:

1) A stock honda ECU, It depends on which ECU you get but its not that bad and there are deals to be found.

2) Parts to chip that ECU ~$15 (zif socket, chip, and a resistors and whatnot)

3) Chip burner, ~$75 new

4) Ostritch 2.0 (Ostrich 2.0 : The New Breed [OSTRICH_2] - $175.00 : Moates.Net) $175. This is what simulated a chip during tuning and allows you to real-time-tune. This is the most expensive part, but you could get an older one or a used one for much cheaper.

So youre looking at probably a bit over 200 bucks to have a standalone ECU thats pretty much just as capable as an AEM
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Ciesielski View Post
So you are saying to perhaps cut a slot into the cam gear bolt to allow the shaft to fit in?
Im kinda thinking you would have to add something that comes forward off the gear so that you could get at the bolt that holds the gear to the cam.

Or I guess you could just say **** it and weld a peice with a slot to the front and just know that if you destroy a cam youre going to have to modify another cam gear...

hmmm, actually I may have a solution

*off to draw stuff*
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:32 PM   #18
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Alright here is my POS sketch, its just showing the idea, its not based on any real measurements or anything

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Old 03-12-2010, 02:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Alright here is my POS sketch, its just showing the idea, its not based on any real measurements or anything


That looks like it would actually work pretty well as long as you balanced it out a bit afterwords.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:56 PM   #20
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So does the dizzy also act as cam position sensor for the ecu or is there another trigger?
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