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Old 01-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #21
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Gag. The only thing worse than mentioning MS wiring schemes is mentioning the fruity computers which shall not be named.

That's what I'm on the fence about - I can't really do better than just buying their 2 DB37's..... Only there's two issues:
1) There's tons of duplicates - there are SIX wires for idle. I need one. That means repurposing 5 lines easily confused with idle.
2) Even so, there are 15 unlabeled black/ground wires, plus the out-of-place coax trigger wire taking up the first two.

So now I'm spending $150+ for two "labeled" bundles of wire that's on the border for high RPM low ohm injectors in terms of gauge, and I can't uniquely identify a lot of the pins. Sure, I will probably want a lot of those grounds to be ground anyway, and I can just read the pin number off the remaining ones... But if I'm resorting to hackery, why buy something "pre done"?

I'd rather just use the Molex stuff and get it all how I want it. I mean, sure, I'll eat my words when I get an MS3 anyway, later... But I'm interested in setting up the car for the long haul, and $5 in molex connectors + $100 in wire seems a better way to go.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #22
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i mean, that's just a problem with a universal ECU designed for a multitude of applications.

The four IAC wires are labeled IAC1A, 1B, 2A and 2B--it's hard to confuse that with PWM IDLE.

I do agree about the other names like: datalogging in, nitrous out, launch in, etc.

the MS3pro went away with that:




youll notice there are still 4 stepper wires and 1 PWM idle; god forbid
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:38 PM   #23
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Buy a scrap wiring harness.

Just pick any random car in a junkyard, and grab as much of the wiring as you can out of it. It can even be a Miata if you want, so you're guaranteed a color-code match. This will get you a section of automotive-grade wire in a variety of color patterns, probably for cheap.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:50 PM   #24
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By that logic, I've already got it in my car. The idea is to take OUT solder joints and 15 year old wire, not to put more back in.

The reel issue is that you have to buy 2500 feet of the stuff. I like that MS3Pro, they are really coming along. Ground up redesign is the way to do it.

I've a few friends who say "wire it in all white aircraft wire. The stuff is amazing, and once it's done you'll not care because you'll never need to get into it again"... Maybe they have a point.

WIRE MARKING TOOL from Aircraft Spruce

Plus I guess you can mark it yourself. :-P Not sure how long that will last though. Probably the smart answer is to buy 10 colors and that should narrow it down enough not to be a problem.
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Old 01-28-2013, 04:59 PM   #25
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By that logic, I've already got it in my car. The idea is to take OUT solder joints and 15 year old wire, not to put more back in.
Yes, I know. My point was that you are looking for automotive-grade wire, and a car is a good source for that. I have a couple of old harnesses lying around that I use simply for the wire that they contain. There's nothing wrong with 10-15 year old wire, particular the interior bits which are not exposed to under-hood abuse.


Oh, and if you want to use white wire, use small bits of colored heat-shrink tubing to ID it- available at Fry's in small quantities. You can even buy heat-shrink tubing with numbers printed on it: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...ORTMENT/1.html
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:24 PM   #26
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Huh. THAT is a pretty reasonable suggestion. I think we're really getting somewhere now. As soon as I get some connectors picked out (OEM I mean) I think I'll be on to something.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #27
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Cable Marker Dispenser for Easy Wire Labeling and ID


$16

This place has 10 colors of TXL wire in 20 gauge at arbitrary lengths for $0.27/ft
TXL & GXL Automotive Wire

These guys have a number of colors....
TXL Wire - 20 AWG Automotive Wire from Allied Wire and Cable, Distributor of Automotive Wiring
Anywhere from 22 cents a foot to 6 cents a foot depending how much you buy.

No idea what getting it pre numbered costs but this can't be impossible to find.
Value-Added Services from Allied Wire & Cable - Distributor of Electrical Wire, Bulk Cable, Heat Shrink Tubing, Custom Cables - Wire Striping Guess it'll take a phone call.

I keep thinking someone makes a bundle of 1-10 wires in each color, but perhaps not. Anyway, looks like there may be hope. :-) Stripes aren't terrible, I've done 100+ conductor, uniquely identified wire before for military applications... It's just not cheap.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #28
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I have used a lot of those, and they're not horrible, but you absolutely must apply clear heat-shrink over them or they'll peel off.

My absolute favorite labeling system is still the self-laminating kind that you print on a little hand-held thermal printer. Pricey, but awesome.


Quote:
I keep thinking someone makes a bundle of 1-10 wires in each color, but perhaps not. Anyway, looks like there may be hope. :-) Stripes aren't terrible, I've done 100+ conductor, uniquely identified wire before for military applications... It's just not cheap.
I also use a fair bit of Belden 8459. This is a 25 conductor cable, 22 awg stranded, with a stripe-based coding scheme. This is the stuff the companies like DEC used to use for DB-25 connectors. It's shockingly expensive, so small amounts of it tend to disappear from work on an as-needed basis. This is the cable I used both inside and outside the ECU I pictured above, for everything except the grounds and injector lines.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:57 AM   #29
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I was looking at some similar stuff - much of it isn't rated for temp or oil resistance... But you can get that at McMaster. Not a bad way to go.

Not familiar with your thermal labeling thing, but so far, 5 colors, 100 feet each of good wire, and numbers 1-10 gives me 50 wires for ~$125, uniquely labeled, 10 foot long.

It sure is hard to compete with buying in bulk and selling it in smaller quantities. I think a day of phone calls will perhaps help. After that, I'm pretty sure it's time to get over myself and just use the MS harnesses. For like $20 extra, it's pretty close and will do the job.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:13 AM   #30
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Not familiar with your thermal labeling thing,
There are a bunch of different types from different manufacturers, but they all work the same way. The labels come on a roll, and each label is 50% white and 50% clear (or some variant thereof.) The printer prints onto the white part. You peel the label off the roll and apply it to the cable white part first, so that the clear part wraps over and covers the printed part to protect it.

They are all expensive, and absolutely indispensable when you're building a wiring harness with hundreds or thousands of individual cables. This one is my favorite: IDXPERT Labeling Printers - BRADY



(the one on the right, with the qwerty keyboard.)


Quote:
I'm pretty sure it's time to get over myself and just use the MS harnesses. For like $20 extra, it's pretty close and will do the job.
Yeah, it's good quality wire. Insulation strips off easy and clean.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:33 AM   #31
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We could sell wire bundles with MS3-Pro labeling if there's any interest in using them for generic setups.

One option for cheap, heat resistant, unlabeled wire in a bunch of colors would be to get a length of control cable for either an overhead crane or an elevator. Places that service those things often get stuck with lengths of cable too short for their regular application, but perfect for automotive use.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:10 PM   #32
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Oh, I almost forgot.

In addition to the handheld label-makers I linked to, you can also buy labels on standard 8.5x11" sheets intended for use with your laser printer. They're somewhat more reasonably priced, and available in a myriad of sizes. These are what we use in-house for mass produced harnesses- the handheld units only get used in the field.

Panduit full-sheet, self-laminating wire labels

Panduit S050X075YAJ LASER/INK JET SELF-LAM LABELS (package of 5000): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific Panduit S050X075YAJ LASER/INK JET SELF-LAM LABELS (package of 5000): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:29 PM   #33
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Man, this was a thread worth starting!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
We could sell wire bundles with MS3-Pro labeling if there's any interest in using them for generic setups.
I would certainly think there would be.

I realize my needs are unique - and that there would be some significant cost delta to DIY - but if the same harnesses just had the few remaining wires labeled, I'd already have bought them. I'm perfectly ok with some of the labels being for other purposes, but it would be nice if pin 12 were labeled as such and not just ground. Even if it weren't numbered, but had a unique color, it'd be ok. I think it would be a huge boon, understandably your job is not to prevent people from buying Megasquirts. :-)

Does the harness currently included with the MS3P package have labeled or coded wires? If there's a cable-mate for it (so I could put a brake in the line) I'd likely be your first customer. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
One option for cheap, heat resistant, unlabeled wire in a bunch of colors would be to get a length of control cable for either an overhead crane or an elevator. Places that service those things often get stuck with lengths of cable too short for their regular application, but perfect for automotive use.
Huh, not only is that a good idea, I've got a friend who builds elevator computers. :-) Perhaps I'll ping him.


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The labels come on a roll, and each label is 50% white and 50% clear (or some variant thereof.) The printer prints onto the white part. You peel the label off the roll and apply it to the cable white part first, so that the clear part wraps over and covers the printed part to protect it.
Huh, it would seem something any modern label maker could do, given the right tape? Most of them will print two lines for higher density.

Have you seen the USB ones? They are much cheaper since they don't need a screen or keyboard - and they are small. Very worth checking out - if it would do labels like this, I would probably get one. Maybe I just need to look for the tape - even so, it's pretty invaluable. Just need to get smartphone drivers. :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Yeah, it's good quality wire. Insulation strips off easy and clean.
drool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Oh, I almost forgot.

In addition to the handheld label-makers I linked to, you can also buy labels on standard 8.5x11" sheets intended for use with your laser printer.
Panduit full-sheet, self-laminating wire labels

Panduit S050X075YAJ LASER/INK JET SELF-LAM LABELS (package of 5000): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
Man, almost more win in this thread than my connector thread.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Huh, it would seem something any modern label maker could do, given the right tape? Most of them will print two lines for higher density.
What makes them special is the label stock that they take. The label itself is white on the upper half and clear on the lower half, and twice as long as is required to wrap around the wire.

Thus, when you apply it, the clear part of the label wraps over the white part (with the printing on it) and covers it completely. This protects the printing from abrasion and damage.

So far as I'm aware, nobody makes such label stock for a "conventional" label printer.


Quote:
Have you seen the USB ones? They are much cheaper since they don't need a screen or keyboard - and they are small.
The higher-end handhelds also have a USB port, so you can plug 'em in if you have a bunch of labels to print, or carry it around if you're doing onesey-twosey stuff in the back of a rack.

I personally don't like using them for that, however. On a per-label basis, the ones for these machines are much more expensive than the sheets for the printer. They're convenient, but not cost-effective for large volumes of labels. Like I said, in the projects that I do, it's not uncommon to have several hundred cables in a single rack- you'd burn through a huge amount of money printing those labels on a hand-held machine. So for the pre-fab stuff, I export a labels page out of the wiring design spreadsheets, and manufacturing uses that to print the labels in sheet form while they are assembling the harness in the factory. We use the hand-held device only for small changes and additions once we get into the field.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:54 AM   #35
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The MS3-Pro wiring is the same labeled / color coded stuff as used in our other harnesses - just with the MS3-Pro pin names instead.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:08 PM   #36
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Matt,
Ah! That's awesome. I assume it's the same deal, with grounds unlabeled black and everything else unique? Pin 20 on the "white" connector is labeled uniquely by number (not just function name - but some reference to the connector) so as not to be confused with Pin 20 on the "grey" one?

Yeah - both the wire bundles and the pre-done harness would be very salable. I would love to see them on the site.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:12 PM   #37
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yep, and it's nice that like injector outputs are white/color and spark is yellow/color or inputs are gray/color or blue/color.

not the ms3pro wiring, but same idea. everything is a different color and labled uniquely:

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Old 01-30-2013, 04:28 PM   #38
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yep, and it's nice that like injector outputs are white/color and spark is yellow/color or inputs are gray/color or blue/color.
This was one of my favorite features. Even though my harness was built with some of the old wiring and isn't 100% MS3P-spec, having the wires grouped by color according to function is a very nice touch. Since the harness was uber-long, after I'd cut it to length for the main ECU harness, I used the remains of the injector and ground wiring to build a completely new injector harness (from the ECU, through the firewall, all the way to the head) to support sequential operation.

Abe- on the harness that I got, there were two different styles of ground wire. None were labeled, but certain grounds use solid black while others use black with a white stripe. That'll make segregating high-current grounds from sensor and logic grounds easy.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:28 PM   #39
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there's just one black/white on the ms3pro harness, iirc.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:34 PM   #40
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there's just one black/white on the ms3pro harness, iirc.
Yeah, but there's 8 feet of it. Which for someone like Abe is enough to make eight one-foot-long runs.

Actually, Matt- if I were to make one suggestion about the production-level harness, it'd be to use black/white for all of the sensor/logic grounds, and black for all of the noisy or high-current stuff.
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