400whp motor build plan? tweak it please
 

I'm starting to collect parts for my motor build, I plan to collect parts and build it over about the next 6 months.

My goal is 400whp, but i want to do it without water/meth injection or any of that type of extra.

so I'm asking you all to look over my current build plan and make suggestions, I'm looking for info from people with real experiance(Sav,Hustler,18psi,etc) with motors making this much power reliably. this motor is for a car that will be daily driven at least part of its life.

here's my plan so far
bottom end;
94 block (have now)
94 crank (have now)
eagle rods (picking up saturday)
arp main studs (picking up saturday)
arp head studs (picking up saturday)
wiseco pistons from fm
acl bearings
BE oil pump
ATI dampener

also plan to have the rotating assembly fully balanced.

top end;
99 head(have now)
fully rebuilt
stock size iconel exhaust valves (or 1mm upsize ?)
port job, unshrouded valves and match chamber volume)
super tech dual valve springs
stock cams with exintake mod(have now)
modified stock intake mani or aftermarket(not sure if its worth it?)

turbo set up;
absurdflow v band
gt2871 (might need the g3071 for 400hp?)
custom intercooler and piping
tial wastegate and bov

electronics;
MS2 with ebc (have now)
800cc or 1000cc injectors ?
walboro 255 (already have) will it be enough?

I plan to wire up a 3 way switch to control boost with.
1, low boost tune ebc disconected 7-8psi
2, low boost tune ebc connected 15~psi
3, high boost tune ebc whatever psi to get 400ish

pick it apart tell me what to tweak or change.

you won't get there with a GT2871R and pump gas- I have this turbo on my motor and made 299whp, with the limiting factor being the pump gas

had a feeling that would be the case, how much boost did it take for that power? I'm against race gas for the track.

i would like to hear from savington on his set up since he is making 350.

Go GT35.

What size 2871 and what manifold and downpipe you using? I am pretty sure I will be able to hit 400hp with mine on pump gas around 22-24psi.

I'm at 18.2 psi. Turbo is .60in, .63 ex. ETD shorty tubular manifold, tial 44m WG, 2.5" DP, 3" all the way back from there. Motor has had a lot of work too.

So GT35 with .63 ar Tial housing would be better for my power goals, or is GT35X with the antisurg worth the extra cost ?

Also will the MVS 38mm wastegate be enough or will I need the extra flow of the MVR 44mm ?

It is you .64 ex that is killing you. The .86 allows you to run a good bit more spark timing up top. There are a total of 8 different 2871, and I think any with a .64 ex A/R is going to limit you.

I should hopefully get back on a dyno in a month and be able to turn up the boost. I am hoping with 15psi I get 300hp and 18-21psi I get about 350hp. We will see.

Absolutely no reason to not go with a Borg Warner EFR if you're investing this much money.

Actually, it should be cheaper since you'll have a BOV and wastegate built into the EFR. Oh, and boost control built in as well.

It's not just the features, but the performance of the EFR trumps Garrett, Turbonetics, Precision, etc...It's not even close at this point. Even the GTX is getting creamed and it's MORE expensive to buy a GTX, turbine housing(gtx does not come as a complete turbo), bov, external wastegate..etc...

This is terrible advice. Why would you suggest a 600whp turbo for a 400whp goal? :facepalm:

With a good intake manifold and a T3-flanged 3071R (not the baby T25 turbine wheel, the real 60mm T3 wheel), you may get there on pump gas with a good intake manifold. I would start with a .63a/r, but you may need to try the .82a/r to keep the TIP low enough to avoid detonation on pump gas. Expect to run 21-23psi with that turbo to hit 400whp. You are going to want a VVT head to help with spool and low-end torque.

Or, look into the EFR7064 from Borg Warner. There aren't a lot of real-world results out there yet, but on paper you should have very little trouble hitting 400whp with that turbo.

Mighty Mouse, how big is the turbine wheel on your 2871R? Is it an ATP housing? Garrett never made a 2871 with a .63a/r turbine housing, and the T3 exhaust wheel is much larger.

That's not a good suggestion, the 7064 is way too big for a 400whp goal. Hell, even the smallest B1 frame EFR is good for 400whp.

OP, I'd look into a 6258 if I was in your shoes(or a 6758 is you ever want 500whp). Save money on parts and get a superior performing turbo.

Also Mighty, what kind of gas? I hit 400 on 93oct

MVR will not hurt you.

I recommend the bigger turbo because enough is never enough and with the GT35R spool/low end power won't hurt that horribly vs gt30 but he can hit 500hp at the same 23/25psi boost level.

I don't think the walboro 255 will be enough. It wasn't enough for me. Yes you want 1000CC injectors. If you're going to drive around on the street a lot, I would recommend a VVT head. If you have $800 to spare, I recommend cams. Cams + valve springs = power to 9000RPM. I recommend sticking with the stock intake manifold and upgrading only if you need to. My 99 manifold is totally gutted and holds power to 8000RPM. Sav's blox manifold conversion is a cheap proven option too.

Last thing. I will tell you that I am now having to redo my turbo setup for the third time because I underanticipated how much power I wanted. Plan to go BIG and it will only cost you a little more money up front vs. having to repurchase everything repeatedly. I will also point out that 400hp is slower than a lot of factory cars nowadays... Do you want to lose to something with a window sticker on it?

Dude 7064 is not big enough. He would have to run mad psi to make 500hp on a 6758. Fail

LOL
So now a 400whp miata is slow? :laugh:

Yeah
Those damn pesky Veyrons, Venoms, and Zondas:jerkit:

But seriously, OP answer this honestly: have you ridden in/driven a 400whp turbo miata? I dont know about these crazy clowns, but its pretty damn fast. Like shit on a z06/viper fast. I'm just sayin.

That said, I'd also go with either an efr or one of the new gtx30 garretts, and an MS3 running full sequential fuel/spark, COP's, and at the very least ID1000's+solid fuel system. Gotpsi? or retro-Blox IM, and some good cams. The rest you pretty much have figured out

i just checked out the bg efr 6758 and i like it since it will leave some headway, are iconol(sp?) studs the answer to bolt problems ?

also its a t2 .64ar ex is that a limiter ? bg says its good to 490

You haven't driven in one either :p And no it's not shit on z06 fast it is walk slowly stock z06 fast


Enjoy failing. Go for T4 and a bigger turbo.

You want t3 and you want .86 or whatever the larger one is.
also iirc those are crank hp figure estimates.
yes I have fa660t. friend has a 500whp miata. Its ungodly fast IMO and I dont like riding in it. every time I was in it I was paranoyd.
From what I understand OP doesn't want to be wrenching on his car constantly to make 2,000,000hp to compensate for his small pee pee, therefore there's no need to go with a turbo that wont spool til 6k

You are getting old.

Details on your friend's car?

Thanks for making it obvious you don't intend on doing research.

Inconel studs are the best solution for stud problems. I strongly recommend the kit from Track Speed Engineering.

No. The .64 is not a limiting factor. The Borg Warner turbos cannot be compared to the Garrett turbos, it's apples and oranges.

Here is a dyno of a T2 .64 6758; EDIT: This is by no means a dyno from a "optimized setup"
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1316706409

Thank you for posting the relevant dyno plot of a 6758 on a miata.

Fully built 94 ramhorn mani godspeed 3076 @27+psi e85 all supporting mods.
It looks like dogshit: primered black, ugly wheels, no accessories, etc. So everyone (although pretty much everyone knows by now) kept thinking its a slow POS. He hit 4xxxwhp on the dyno before the clutch slipped so its well into the 400's possibly 500 even. He's on here but doesn't post much at all.
Go on youtube and go on TheBayAreaRacing channel. Look up "turbo miata". Should be a couple vids of it.

Relevant as in posting evidence and answering the OP's question about the T2 .64 a/r being a choke point(which it clearly isn't), then yes. I consider that relevant.

Dumb ass.

When you guys are talking about 400rwhp Miatas, do you mean track prepped? Like stripped and caged or a full boat with ac and shit?
I mean a 400 hp Miata is a pretty insane ride.. Am I wrong?

/\ completely agree...Its very fast.
And according to OP's post its a street car

This thread is one of the worst I've seen on this forum in a very long time.

lots of bickering

So I'll add fuel system to the list for the big power numbers, And 1000cc injectors.

The car will be street driven but I have no intention of going VVT I dont mind the lag and not reaching full boost till 4-4500. Should make traction easier and less det like sav was talking about.

Upgraded Valve springs are on my list, But I cant find a place making cams for the BP4W head right now so those will have to be custom ground and i`ll worry about those after I get the car going.

As for the redoing the turbo set up, I want to do it once and have fun and leave some head way, I didnt think much about this when I made my orignal post on the fly the otherday.

That is why I liked the idea of the Absurdflow mani and DP with a Tial housing and garrett turbo, The GT35X with the Tial exhaust housing looks like it should give me full boost by around 4k and have enough room to make 500+ whp. That if if I ever want to do that much.

Yes the garret might not be the best turbo out there but it has a proven track record and thats why I like it.

The Borgwaner turbos look nice and would probably give better spool but is there really any other upsides ?

My car is a street car but it might as well be a track car, last time I weighed it it came in a 2050lbs with 3/4 tank of gas. Now im only 135lbs so the car will probably be 2200lbs with 400whp that to me is an insanly fast street car.


As for wrenching on the car constantly, I know stuff will break its bound to happen but what I can not stand is if I spend 4-5k on turbo stuff to be fighting with exhaust leaks. That was the big thing of going Vband for me is its never going to break.

And seriously when it comes to the arguing lets not do that in my thread i`m looking for real feedback on my goals and plans with this motor so I dont go and spend 10k on stuff then to forget one small thing that ruins all of it.

OK then build for bigger power than your goal and you will be happy

Not fast enough.

There is no way in hell you're going to see full boost from a GTX35R by 4000rpm. Not a damn chance. JayL's car has VVT and a 3076R and he can't do it - no way you're going to do it with a full frame larger and no VVT. https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....&postcount=116

I think some of the advice you've gotten here is really terrible and misleading. You're going to build the car and be really disappointed in the driveability if you go too big on the turbo. I don't want to bicker, but that's my opinion, and I have a lot of experience with turbos on these cars.

Call/email me if you'd like - I can get a better idea of what you're looking for and suggest something that will do the job. I can even sell you the turbo ;)

Don't ask Min when it comes to a fuel system...he enough pump for 800-1000 whp

255 is plenty of pump for 400 whp on pump gas, I broke 400 whp with a 255 and 750 CC injectors on 93 with a lot of room left running 43 psi base pressure. I broke 400 whp at a little over 16-17 psi on a 5857. I wouldn't suggest GT series anything with better stuff out there. IE PTE CEA Wheels, GTX, EFR series etc.

It seems like you're wasting money on some silly things for a street car personally. FM pistons are a rip off, and why would you spend 800 bucks on those pistons and get junk Eagle rods? I am offended that you mentioned 18psi when it comes to a 400 whp Miata.

400 whp isn't fast...sorry gays why are you set on that number?

My memory was off from this setup http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=307213

Looks to be full boost by 5k which is alittle later then I want.

I had planned on emailing you about the turbo stuff as Tim(is my memory right?) from absurdflow said you might have a better set up for me. But i`m not going to be ordering turbo stuff till after I get my tax return. But im picking up the Eagle rods, and ARP studs for $250 so that has motivated me to do my motor build quicker.

Do you have a link to you build or a dyno sheet ? those kind of numbers are right what I was looking for, but at alot lower boost level then I was thinking.

How are the FM pistons a rip off ? your the only one I know of to make that statement, along with the eagle rods many many people have used them with good results ?

He made a dyno pull, never posted any videos of his car, call everyone a "hater" when people questioned it, and now is throwing tens of thousands of dollars into his car that's not done yet.

That means = Internet God of all things high powered miata:jerkit:
Offended? fuck you. Stop by our shop and see how many 400whp cars we've built.

I don't need videos to prove my car, call the shop. Doubting a world known shop is beyond me. Call them and ask about my car.

Building a 400 whp car is easy. Sorry bby

Andrew is highly recommended. The guys at TSE are very knowledgeable and will get you on the right track. Same with ABSURDflow as well, awesome stuff. Don't forget to check out Abe @ ARtech! He does excellent work, too.

The FM pistons are not a fan favorite here, mostly because you can get pistons that work just as well for nearly half the cost. Wiseco and Supertech have off the shelf units that will handle the power you want and more.

As far as the rods go, most "cheap" H-beams like eagle, M-tuned, etc... are generally considered to be the same. However, they don't appear to be junk at all. I don't recall ever hearing about any one having a machining issue, or more importantly, breaking one due to over powering them on a miata motor. They hold up just fine for people who are looking for 400-500whp.

Here are his results:

https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-timesheets-21/what-youve-been-waiting-results-inside-52669/

My 2871R makes more power from idle to 6000rpm. Not to pick on Jason, but he is a perfect example of going way too big, not understanding the consequences, and ending up with a dyno queen car.

When TSE builds a 300whp or 400whp car, we don't build a dyno queen. I can't stand dyno queen cars. They are great for the purposes of internet dick-waving, but in the real world my 350whp car will be faster than a dyno-queen 425whp car. My car makes 295wtq, but it also makes 90% of peak torque from 4000rpm to 7000rpm - big power doesn't get more usable than that.

6000-8000 is 2,000 RPM of power band...which is 25% of a power band. Not about being a dyno queen...I use my car for highway pulls etc. a street car, not road racing. Straight line on the highway I would kill you. Anyway, with my new set up I bet I move my power band to the left a good 500-1,000 RPM and add another 1,000 RPM to my rev limit with about 200 whp more.


Also, I made at LEAST 50 whp more then you at the same/near same boost level while you where on a better fuel and more displacement. It shows whose set up is more efficient.

Race gas? E85...

I actually like your powerband alot, how much would not having VVT move it ? and is that setup able to do 400whp ?

A bonus if i went to your numbers my current clutch is rated for 310tq so i almost dont even have to upgrade that.


For a the record to everyone I dont want a dyno queen, i`m going to drive this car and drive it hard and alot.

Listen to Savington if you want a car that will perform on the track where it counts. He knows what he's talking about and has experience with different Miata turbo setups from a tuning/build perspective. There's not many folks on this forum that have had a legitimate 400+ whp setup. There seems to be even less in this thread offering advice. That should tell you something.

Look at what others in the past have done, then see if you truly believe their setup coincides with the numbers they made, then look at what they did with the car once it made the numbers. If at that time you feel it's a legitimate build then take what you can from it to make your own car faster. As for listening to the internet nutswingers, they sound like they know what their talking about, but I don't find many 400+ whp builds around here. From where I'm sitting out in the cheap seats, there's only two impressive turbo cars at the moment in this forum (Savington and Bundy) and they are doing it with less than 400 to the wheels, but most importantly they are doing it by driving the snot out of the cars rather than beating everyone with brute power.

not to interupt, but I also plan to push for 400whp later on and so far my pick of turbo when comes crunh time later on is the borg warner s256, I checked though the GT series compressor maps and wasn't impressed, couldn't get it lined up in areas. So far this was best line up for my goals, turbine maps unknown, hard to say.

I tried getting EFR to line up but wasn't succuseful with any of those.

I think the 35r suggestion is great advise. It will make it alot easier to reach his goal on pump gas. And living in Florida this will prolly be a weekend warrior/street car so the very slightly slower spool really wont mater. Any turbo will spool if your break boosting.
If this is a track car not a street or drag car i would prolly go with the 30r with the tial vband but in Florida specially Tampa area, most performance cars are used for street racing, we got alot of street racing out here like ALOT.

^ you with gfr ? my buddies ae86 is there now.

he got a zr1 by 5 cars from a 60 roll with no traction at every shift and pulled a '06 ish suzuki GSXR 1000 stret bike rom a freeway roll... its for sale for 7k if sny one is interested...

Skeptical.

Dude is also running shit tires

Trapped 126 spinning the whole way down the track.

Respect

still needs better tires :) i saw the vid :)

i didnt bother to read the other posts, im making 418whp on my motor, and it has alot left in it, that was on 18psi and im running VP C12 race gas.

your bottom end should be good although i dont like eagle rods and i think you would be spending money better to buy carrillo super a beams.

the head is almost the same thing that i am running, im not sure how extensive the port work your doing is, but the head is where your gonna make the power, my head is race ported, with 1mm over supertech valves on the intake and exhaust(you dont need inconel) i use just the single supertech springs(because thats what i needed for spring pressure for my cams, you dont need to run big dual springs, it all depends on what the cam mfg wants for spring pressure, to much pressure will cause premature wear) and i have integral R3 intake cam and R1 exhaust cam. i highly suggest you get bigger cams for your goals, you dont need massive lopy monsters like mine but something in the 270's on duration and a bit more lift. i also have a custom sheetmetal intake manifold,and custom synapse turbo manifold. i run a gt3071, hope this helps

here is a link to my build thread, i have pictures through the whole engine machining and assembly. i worked in a race engine shop for 5 years as a machinist. if you have any questions about the engine build pm me
https://www.miataturbo.net/general-miata-chat-9/my-tube-front-drifter-17881/

Your cars are built for totally different purposes, but I'll tell you this... one deserves much more respect than the other, because one is pushed so much harder than the other. Anyone who's done even one track day knows this.

You are the definition of a dyno queen. You'r car isn't even complete and you're talking about how it would kill a track-prepped car in a straight line. Do you really think he gives a shit about freeway runs? A 400whp miata is slow? That's only because you can't really drive one, hoss. You're embarrassing yourself.

Sigh where is the

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1316914284

No hp gauge, not interested :inout:

Where do you get one?

If money isn't a problem why hasn't anyone said twin scroll or HTA3076r?

Overnight parts from japan, or at Herry's.

whoops haven't been in this thread in a while. I have a t3 exhaust housing on my turbo, and I'm on 93 octane pump gas. I think that was all that was asked of me?

Saw this in this months grassroots and thought it might help a few of you.

www.tinyurl.com/3z838g5

Pretty cool way to match a turbo to your car/needs

OK serious time.

I would recommend this turbo:

http://www.diesel-plus.com/dd_turbo.cfm?npid=9769

Borg Warner S200/S256 P/N 317222

Bit larger than a GT30R, smaller than a GT35R.

T4 frame, twin scroll turbine housing, .85 A/R, rebuildable for cheap, anti-surge, oil feed only. Use with either a twin scroll manifold (ARTech can build you one for $800) or undivided manifold and be baller and get a quick spool valve like me.

I miss Faeflipper user name