Boundary billet oil pump gear clearances
02-20-2010, 05:48 PM
#21
Will,
I have pictures of the parts, but they are not here as I'm not on my main computer. I'm going to clarify very carefully my main points of all that was posted above.
Statistically its improbable for us to be in fault because:
Mechanically it is improbable for us to be at fault because:
Reasons I believe Boundary Engineering is the only firm actively engaged in finding the answer to this problem:
Regarding warrantee:
How we have been investigating the matter more:
Reasons for change in behavior to revaluate this pump:
What we have done since the initial incident to insure we are never again brought into question about this product:
We value customer feedback. The reason we value experiences like the one between us is so that we can make significant changes to our product that reflects better protection to our customers as well as our company. When I generate a new report I will review our conversations and post it here in a chronologically, and factually consistant model.
I have pictures of the parts, but they are not here as I'm not on my main computer. I'm going to clarify very carefully my main points of all that was posted above.
Statistically its improbable for us to be in fault because:
- All the other pumps sent out had zero problems which represents a 2/250 failure rate or .8%
- The relief valve assembly showed similar signs of mechanical binding found in other motors that do not run our products. There are literally hundreds of people claiming that their oil pump relief valve has become jammed without our product ever being involved.
- i'm blowing oil filter o-rings! - MX-5 Miata Forum
- Reading NO oil pressure (dummy gauge) and HLA noise - MX-5 Miata Forum
- The only one other case of a relief valve sticking using our product happened in a pump we did not supply a full housing. The pump worked before, and then shortly after startup, the relief valve jammed.
- There are strict guidelines in place for the assembly of the high flow billet assemblies.
- The facility it was produced at is a world class manufacturing facility by machinist who have decades of experience in precision work.
- This process has been reviewed by the other 2 principle designers associated with Boundary Engineering which each have master degrees in Mechanical Engineering for the Louisville Speed School of Engineering. One is an EX-NASA engineer, the other a long term structural engineer. We agreed on this particular process for being safe, and effective at eliminating defects.
Mechanically it is improbable for us to be at fault because:
- The gears showed no out of specification clearances
- The measure of the piston to the cylinder is consistent with other relief valves.
- The significant scarring in the pumping cavity indicates sloppy motor assembly that is rife to the point of negligence with horribly dirty assembly. The amount of scarring and debris present is far beyond the wear I've seen in pumps with over 200k miles of driving.
- There are severe wear marks on the piston assembly indicating high speed highly abrasive fluid was moving through the cavity and lining the walls of the relief valve.
- The wear marks present on the gears found in your motor are consistant with wear in vehicles that have stuck relief valves. The debris that created these wear marks is not created by our product. We are prepared to ship samples of ultrasonic cleaned and assembled oil pump assemblies to prove this to any 3rd party testing facility at your cost for a thorough evaluation.
Reasons I believe Boundary Engineering is the only firm actively engaged in finding the answer to this problem:
- We are the only company in the discussion who have presented new information and thoroughly outlined the reasons and logic behind our decisions
- We are the only company who made sure for free of charge that your motor was put back on the road.
- The machine shop was quick to put your car back up on jacks, charge us with "Blueprinted oil pump my ***" and profit massively from you while they blamed us without presenting any clear information besides the relief valve is stuck.
- The machine shop did not have your best interest in mind because they immediately said it was the pump passing blame to us without addressing other glaring problems. The most definitive problem upon opening up the oil pump and seeing that kind of wear would not be why the oil relief valve is stuck, but how would it not be stuck and why do these gears that are 200% harder then stock and some 10X stronger recieve that much debris damage.
Regarding warrantee:
- Our product does not carry a warranty as per our transaction. A warrantee is not implied on the website and I did not have to replace your unit.
- Your unit was replaced because I thought I was morally doing the right thing in order to get you on the road for as cheaply as possible and to help you out the most.
- You received a full multi hour analysis of the oil pump in your email describing the conditions we found in the pump at the time it was received by us.
How we have been investigating the matter more:
- Since you have brought up the issue we have cataloged all the current gears that were produced before your unit was shipped.
- We contacted many customers who have purchased our products and have not received any responses indicating anything other than flawless performance.
- We contacted all the customers who purchased our pumps who received pumps from the same manufactured cores that your pump came from. Those pumps are all working without issue.
- We completely disassembled the 50 pumps that came in from customs to evaluate all of their relief valve pistons and have found none of them to have any condition consistent with sticking.
Reasons for change in behavior to revaluate this pump:
- The reason we have picked back up your old pump is because of your latest interaction and charges. We spent a multitude of hours on it going through it the first time. His shop rate is $60 an hour minimum for this type of work; I can't continue to fund research on why a pump fails for free when the company has already taken actions that preclude us ever again being made liable for a defective pump.
- My company is being singled out and attacked for reasons I am not sure so I am seeking to clear its name therefore I will invest the time and money to do so.
What we have done since the initial incident to insure we are never again brought into question about this product:
- Each customer receives a sheet which explicitly states the clearances for their pump
- Each customer sees the checklist of items performed on the pump.
- Each customer receives a signed and dated oil pump blue printing sheet that verifies the actions stated on the form have been performed and that the clearances of this pump are corresponding to this serial numbered, and cataloged pump assembly.
- Each customer is given a warrantee statement at the bottom of this form indicating the extent of his/her warrantee.
- Each pump receives extra attention to the relief valve.
- We have added 1 additional hour of labor to each pump in order to make sure that no pump is rushed and each is painstakingly evaluated.
We value customer feedback. The reason we value experiences like the one between us is so that we can make significant changes to our product that reflects better protection to our customers as well as our company. When I generate a new report I will review our conversations and post it here in a chronologically, and factually consistant model.
Last edited by TravisR; 02-20-2010 at 06:07 PM.
Reply
0
0
02-20-2010, 11:42 PM
#22
Who ever said that my mechanic was also my machine shop?
My car is at the race shop. This is where the assembled engine was installed, and then removed.
Regarding the machine shops, there are 3 involved.
All independent of one another.
Head specialist.
Block builder.
A 3rd for an additional opinion on the pump.
You have made gross assumptions.
Incorrect, gross assumptions.
Put away the electron microscopes and text books.
Have you tried dropping the relief valve piston into the chamber?
What happened?
Did the piston pop right back out, or did it get stuck?
What happened when you put some light pressure on it?
The relief valve performed consistently throughout its time in the engine.
According to your theory, foreign matter caused the relief valve to stick. If that were the case, why did the valve ever un-stick? More importantly, once unstuck, why would the valve consistently stick closed anytime engine oil temperatures fell below 150°F? Your opinion is that debris permanently deformed the relief piston or chamber, yet your friend measured both and found them to be within spec. Which is it, deformed or within spec?
I contend that the clearance of the relief valve chamber was tight to the piston at the very top of the chamber, which is where the piston sits when closed. The clearance was so close that the very slight amount of thermal expansion at 150-160°F was enough to allow the piston to move freely.
Which seems more likely?
This is a picture of the relief valve opening. Think of it as a window looking into the relief valve chamber. You can't see it, but the chamber runs from left to right in this picture.
First, notice how rough and jagged the edges around this opening are.
Second, look "through" the opening and into the chamber. That area is out of focus, but you can still make out a dark line, which is actually a ring that goes around the entire chamber. That ring is where the piston repeatedly sticks. Notice how dark the line is, yet how smooth and consistent the area to the right is.
This picture shows the inside of the chamber better.
Notice the same pattern on the piston. In this picture, the piston is "upside down". The bottom of the piston is at the top of the picture. Notice that dark ring on the piston, which lines up with the dark ring in the chamber when the piston is closed.
Again, notice the scarring. The top of the piston is pointing to the right in this picture. It appears to my simple mind, that the higher the piston moved into the chamber (or the closer it got to closed), the more it would come in contact with the chamber wall, until it would finally stick. It is as if the top of the pressure relief chamber tightens up a bit.
Here is the bottom of the relief valve, where the spring rests. The indentation around the inside is where a snap ring holds everything in place. The piston never comes into contact with this area. I have no idea why there is scarring here, but it could not have been caused by debris.
This is the oil feed chamber. Is this the one your friend uses his million-dollar machines to surgically enlarge, which makes this a "high flow" pump?. Am I correct that this is the outlet of the oil pump, which supplies oil to the entire engine? Is this the normal quality of work customers should expect in these pumps?
Are you aware of this? Did your friend share this picture with you?
My car is at the race shop. This is where the assembled engine was installed, and then removed.
Regarding the machine shops, there are 3 involved.
All independent of one another.
Head specialist.
Block builder.
A 3rd for an additional opinion on the pump.
You have made gross assumptions.
Incorrect, gross assumptions.
Put away the electron microscopes and text books.
Have you tried dropping the relief valve piston into the chamber?
What happened?
Did the piston pop right back out, or did it get stuck?
What happened when you put some light pressure on it?
The relief valve performed consistently throughout its time in the engine.
- The valve would stick shut at cold-start.
- Above 150-160° of oil temperature, the valve would begin working properly.
- Shut off the engine and allow it to cool down.
- Cold-start the engine, the valve would stick shut.
- If the engine were shut off hot, and immediately re-started, the valve would work properly.
- These symptoms could be replicated at will - the function and behavior of the pump was ALWAYS EXACTLY THE SAME.
According to your theory, foreign matter caused the relief valve to stick. If that were the case, why did the valve ever un-stick? More importantly, once unstuck, why would the valve consistently stick closed anytime engine oil temperatures fell below 150°F? Your opinion is that debris permanently deformed the relief piston or chamber, yet your friend measured both and found them to be within spec. Which is it, deformed or within spec?
I contend that the clearance of the relief valve chamber was tight to the piston at the very top of the chamber, which is where the piston sits when closed. The clearance was so close that the very slight amount of thermal expansion at 150-160°F was enough to allow the piston to move freely.
Which seems more likely?
This is a picture of the relief valve opening. Think of it as a window looking into the relief valve chamber. You can't see it, but the chamber runs from left to right in this picture.
First, notice how rough and jagged the edges around this opening are.
Second, look "through" the opening and into the chamber. That area is out of focus, but you can still make out a dark line, which is actually a ring that goes around the entire chamber. That ring is where the piston repeatedly sticks. Notice how dark the line is, yet how smooth and consistent the area to the right is.
This picture shows the inside of the chamber better.
Notice the same pattern on the piston. In this picture, the piston is "upside down". The bottom of the piston is at the top of the picture. Notice that dark ring on the piston, which lines up with the dark ring in the chamber when the piston is closed.
Again, notice the scarring. The top of the piston is pointing to the right in this picture. It appears to my simple mind, that the higher the piston moved into the chamber (or the closer it got to closed), the more it would come in contact with the chamber wall, until it would finally stick. It is as if the top of the pressure relief chamber tightens up a bit.
Here is the bottom of the relief valve, where the spring rests. The indentation around the inside is where a snap ring holds everything in place. The piston never comes into contact with this area. I have no idea why there is scarring here, but it could not have been caused by debris.
This is the oil feed chamber. Is this the one your friend uses his million-dollar machines to surgically enlarge, which makes this a "high flow" pump?. Am I correct that this is the outlet of the oil pump, which supplies oil to the entire engine? Is this the normal quality of work customers should expect in these pumps?
Are you aware of this? Did your friend share this picture with you?
Last edited by wildo; 02-20-2010 at 11:55 PM.
Reply
0
0
02-21-2010, 12:48 AM
#23
Hello Will,
I'm going to list what I'm seeing here by picture:
Picture one:
Picture 2:
Picture 3 & 4: This is the real tell all of what was happening inside.
Picture 5: is a non functional part of the pump. The relief spring sits here along with the spring keeper and lock ring. This had nothing to do with the operation of anything.
Picture 6:
The way the pumps are made high flow is that we physically machine the housings gear pocket deeper with a fat end mill. We then create a custom high flow billet that is physically fatter then a standard pump. By doing this we actually increase the size of the pump itself which creates a higher flow oil pump. You cannot even come close to fitting a high flow oil pump gear in a stock housing its way too fat.
I don't really think I need to comment anymore here on this. This is pretty open and shut. Your machine shop did a horrible job of collecting the debris in the engine. They left so much in it that it was pretty well extrude honing every passage the oil touched. I'd sue them, but that's just me. Now I just can't feel bad enough for what I put Stuart through over this. Didn't have anything to do with us.
Thanks for the pictures. I'm going to save them and send them over to Stuart apologizing that I ever doubted him.
Best,
Travis
I'm going to list what I'm seeing here by picture:
Picture one:
- That ring where the soft aluminum is scored is caused by a fluid that's acting more like sandpaper then fluid. The piston did not cause that damage, it is too long to angle into the aluminum, and the edges of the piston are smooth.
- As the piston rapidly slides up and down controlling pressure, bits of debris get caught between the piston and the relief valve wall.
- If the valve was getting stuck where that ring is it was getting stuck at least half way open.
- Instead it was getting caught much farther up the bore as all the granules got trapped between the relief valve and the cylinder.
Picture 2:
- This is a clear indication of normal relief valve piston movement. You can see exactly where the piston goes down to under full load.
- As the piston goes up and down you can see where the little pieces of debris got caught in between the piston and the wall and they were eating at each other.
Picture 3 & 4: This is the real tell all of what was happening inside.
- See the ring that has formed on the piston. Aluminum cannot do that to steel. Only metals that are harder then the piston can wear into it like that.
- The only thing that can mar these faces like that is fluid debris. If you rub a steel piece and an aluminum piece together only the aluminum will be effected.
- Therefore the only thing causing these types of where marks is fluid debris which is harder then the steel in the piston relief valve.
- You can actually see where little pebbles of debris got lodged on the side of the piston and began eating into the side of both the piston and the aluminum. Its extremely apparent here.
Picture 5: is a non functional part of the pump. The relief spring sits here along with the spring keeper and lock ring. This had nothing to do with the operation of anything.
Picture 6:
- These ports are never touched.
- This wall irregularity will help trip flow going into the tube and setup the boundary layer for smooth flow through the channel.
- The pump is limited by its size not the passages.
The way the pumps are made high flow is that we physically machine the housings gear pocket deeper with a fat end mill. We then create a custom high flow billet that is physically fatter then a standard pump. By doing this we actually increase the size of the pump itself which creates a higher flow oil pump. You cannot even come close to fitting a high flow oil pump gear in a stock housing its way too fat.
I don't really think I need to comment anymore here on this. This is pretty open and shut. Your machine shop did a horrible job of collecting the debris in the engine. They left so much in it that it was pretty well extrude honing every passage the oil touched. I'd sue them, but that's just me. Now I just can't feel bad enough for what I put Stuart through over this. Didn't have anything to do with us.
Thanks for the pictures. I'm going to save them and send them over to Stuart apologizing that I ever doubted him.
Best,
Travis
Who ever said that my mechanic was also my machine shop?
My car is at the race shop. This is where the assembled engine was installed, and then removed.
Regarding the machine shops, there are 3 involved.
All independent of one another.
Head specialist.
Block builder.
A 3rd for an additional opinion on the pump.
You have made gross assumptions.
Incorrect, gross assumptions.
Put away the electron microscopes and text books.
Have you tried dropping the relief valve piston into the chamber?
What happened?
Did the piston pop right back out, or did it get stuck?
What happened when you put some light pressure on it?
The relief valve performed consistently throughout its time in the engine.
According to your theory, foreign matter caused the relief valve to stick. If that were the case, why did the valve ever un-stick? More importantly, once unstuck, why would the valve consistently stick closed anytime engine oil temperatures fell below 150°F? Your opinion is that debris permanently deformed the relief piston or chamber, yet your friend measured both and found them to be within spec. Which is it, deformed or within spec?
I contend that the clearance of the relief valve chamber was tight to the piston at the very top of the chamber, which is where the piston sits when closed. The clearance was so close that the very slight amount of thermal expansion at 150-160°F was enough to allow the piston to move freely.
Which seems more likely?
This is a picture of the relief valve opening. Think of it as a window looking into the relief valve chamber. You can't see it, but the chamber runs from left to right in this picture.
First, notice how rough and jagged the edges around this opening are.
Second, look "through" the opening and into the chamber. That area is out of focus, but you can still make out a dark line, which is actually a ring that goes around the entire chamber. That ring is where the piston repeatedly sticks. Notice how dark the line is, yet how smooth and consistent the area to the right is.
This picture shows the inside of the chamber better.
Notice the same pattern on the piston. In this picture, the piston is "upside down". The bottom of the piston is at the top of the picture. Notice that dark ring on the piston, which lines up with the dark ring in the chamber when the piston is closed.
Again, notice the scarring. The top of the piston is pointing to the right in this picture. It appears to my simple mind, that the higher the piston moved into the chamber (or the closer it got to closed), the more it would come in contact with the chamber wall, until it would finally stick. It is as if the top of the pressure relief chamber tightens up a bit.
Here is the bottom of the relief valve, where the spring rests. The indentation around the inside is where a snap ring holds everything in place. The piston never comes into contact with this area. I have no idea why there is scarring here, but it could not have been caused by debris.
This is the oil feed chamber. Is this the one your friend uses his million-dollar machines to surgically enlarge, which makes this a "high flow" pump?. Am I correct that this is the outlet of the oil pump, which supplies oil to the entire engine? Is this the normal quality of work customers should expect in these pumps?
Are you aware of this? Did your friend share this picture with you?
My car is at the race shop. This is where the assembled engine was installed, and then removed.
Regarding the machine shops, there are 3 involved.
All independent of one another.
Head specialist.
Block builder.
A 3rd for an additional opinion on the pump.
You have made gross assumptions.
Incorrect, gross assumptions.
Put away the electron microscopes and text books.
Have you tried dropping the relief valve piston into the chamber?
What happened?
Did the piston pop right back out, or did it get stuck?
What happened when you put some light pressure on it?
The relief valve performed consistently throughout its time in the engine.
- The valve would stick shut at cold-start.
- Above 150-160° of oil temperature, the valve would begin working properly.
- Shut off the engine and allow it to cool down.
- Cold-start the engine, the valve would stick shut.
- If the engine were shut off hot, and immediately re-started, the valve would work properly.
- These symptoms could be replicated at will - the function and behavior of the pump was ALWAYS EXACTLY THE SAME.
According to your theory, foreign matter caused the relief valve to stick. If that were the case, why did the valve ever un-stick? More importantly, once unstuck, why would the valve consistently stick closed anytime engine oil temperatures fell below 150°F? Your opinion is that debris permanently deformed the relief piston or chamber, yet your friend measured both and found them to be within spec. Which is it, deformed or within spec?
I contend that the clearance of the relief valve chamber was tight to the piston at the very top of the chamber, which is where the piston sits when closed. The clearance was so close that the very slight amount of thermal expansion at 150-160°F was enough to allow the piston to move freely.
Which seems more likely?
This is a picture of the relief valve opening. Think of it as a window looking into the relief valve chamber. You can't see it, but the chamber runs from left to right in this picture.
First, notice how rough and jagged the edges around this opening are.
Second, look "through" the opening and into the chamber. That area is out of focus, but you can still make out a dark line, which is actually a ring that goes around the entire chamber. That ring is where the piston repeatedly sticks. Notice how dark the line is, yet how smooth and consistent the area to the right is.
This picture shows the inside of the chamber better.
Notice the same pattern on the piston. In this picture, the piston is "upside down". The bottom of the piston is at the top of the picture. Notice that dark ring on the piston, which lines up with the dark ring in the chamber when the piston is closed.
Again, notice the scarring. The top of the piston is pointing to the right in this picture. It appears to my simple mind, that the higher the piston moved into the chamber (or the closer it got to closed), the more it would come in contact with the chamber wall, until it would finally stick. It is as if the top of the pressure relief chamber tightens up a bit.
Here is the bottom of the relief valve, where the spring rests. The indentation around the inside is where a snap ring holds everything in place. The piston never comes into contact with this area. I have no idea why there is scarring here, but it could not have been caused by debris.
This is the oil feed chamber. Is this the one your friend uses his million-dollar machines to surgically enlarge, which makes this a "high flow" pump?. Am I correct that this is the outlet of the oil pump, which supplies oil to the entire engine? Is this the normal quality of work customers should expect in these pumps?
Are you aware of this? Did your friend share this picture with you?
Reply
0
0
02-21-2010, 03:45 AM
#24
I should have known you were a total text-book type with zero experience in the real world as soon as I read your first email. I have since learned that so many other forum members have already tried to warn others.
You are the self-proclaimed best engineer in the class, yet as a total layman, my initial observations were spot-on, and yours were out in left field. I should post that email to entertain the readers.
I now post 4 pictures, and from these pictures, you have completed a complete analysis in a matter of minutes. Why didn't you state this in your first post, or better yet, months ago? Because, perhaps, you never even looked at the pump?
You have assumed an awful lot, including the assumption that I have not done my homework.
You also suggest I start a law suit over this. Interesting thought. I read in another thread that you suggested the same to one of your other dissatisfied customers.
You are aware that if I did, you would be among those named, and with all of the information you have provided, so would Took Tek, your friend/supplier in New Fairfield Connecticut? I assume he owns that company, and you subcontract to him? Is he aware that you present him as an integral part of your company?
I never indicated any desire to bring a suit against anyone. I never said, suggested, or in any way implied such a thing. Ironically, it appears to be of primary importance to you. Cover your ***, hope a lawsuit doesn't arise, try to keep all of my issues from blowing up on the forums.
What exactly do you think I would find, if for example, my car were sitting on a lift for 4 months and I had the opportunity to have my engine apart to inspect for damage? Would oil passages, bearings, journals and lobes look similar to the oil pump? What would I find at the bottom of the oil pan? What about the filters that were cut open, what would you suppose I might have found there? Would you need me to provide pictures before you could answer? How about a guess?
By your own conclusion, there were big chunks of debris in the engine.
If the chunks are so large, wouldn't they have been caught by the oil filter? If they weren't, why?
My conclusion is that the pump, as received from your friend/supplier/business partner, was defective. The damage sustained to the pump is evidence that the oil was not being filtered.
The defective relief valve prevented the filter from doing its job.
Period, case closed.
You are not someone I wish to ever do business with again.
Just like many of the customer complaints you have fielded online, you insinuate knowledge and experience through insignificant statements. An engineer's form of "name dropping", I suppose. This thread ends like so many others, and I guess it had to happen to me before I could understand what all of those other people were talking about.
You know, as I think about it, all of your products are knock-offs of someone else's work. Where's the talent in that?
You think your customer service is stellar, but in reality it is simply lip-service. Anytime your customers have encountered a problem, it has been the fault of someone else. You have always been the victim. Such-and-such components are hard to find. So-and-so left town and screwed me. The bank won't give me a loan. The dog ate my homework.
It is amateur hour at Boundary Engineering, and the only regret I have is not heeding the warnings sooner.
I've read-up on a few of your other posts & issues lately, and honestly, I can't believe that there isn't some type of standard applied by these forums regarding who they allow to advertise. You appear to do much more harm than good to the Miata community.
All that said, I would love to see those carbon fiber brake cooling ducts you designed make it to the market place. Could you tell me how much of your vast engineering knowledge went into that design?
See? You are not the only one that can infer one thing by saying another. I'm just being sarcastic and direct about it, whereas you think you are fooling people.
Let me connect the dots in case they do not teach this until the last day of engineering school:
You are the engineer who thinks that brake rotors vent air radially, from the outside-in toward the center of the rotor. I am the layman grassroots racer that knows you have no idea what you are talking about. The suggestion, in case you missed it, is that you frequently have no idea what you are talking about.
You are the self-proclaimed best engineer in the class, yet as a total layman, my initial observations were spot-on, and yours were out in left field. I should post that email to entertain the readers.
I now post 4 pictures, and from these pictures, you have completed a complete analysis in a matter of minutes. Why didn't you state this in your first post, or better yet, months ago? Because, perhaps, you never even looked at the pump?
You have assumed an awful lot, including the assumption that I have not done my homework.
You also suggest I start a law suit over this. Interesting thought. I read in another thread that you suggested the same to one of your other dissatisfied customers.
You are aware that if I did, you would be among those named, and with all of the information you have provided, so would Took Tek, your friend/supplier in New Fairfield Connecticut? I assume he owns that company, and you subcontract to him? Is he aware that you present him as an integral part of your company?
I never indicated any desire to bring a suit against anyone. I never said, suggested, or in any way implied such a thing. Ironically, it appears to be of primary importance to you. Cover your ***, hope a lawsuit doesn't arise, try to keep all of my issues from blowing up on the forums.
What exactly do you think I would find, if for example, my car were sitting on a lift for 4 months and I had the opportunity to have my engine apart to inspect for damage? Would oil passages, bearings, journals and lobes look similar to the oil pump? What would I find at the bottom of the oil pan? What about the filters that were cut open, what would you suppose I might have found there? Would you need me to provide pictures before you could answer? How about a guess?
By your own conclusion, there were big chunks of debris in the engine.
If the chunks are so large, wouldn't they have been caught by the oil filter? If they weren't, why?
My conclusion is that the pump, as received from your friend/supplier/business partner, was defective. The damage sustained to the pump is evidence that the oil was not being filtered.
The defective relief valve prevented the filter from doing its job.
Period, case closed.
You are not someone I wish to ever do business with again.
Just like many of the customer complaints you have fielded online, you insinuate knowledge and experience through insignificant statements. An engineer's form of "name dropping", I suppose. This thread ends like so many others, and I guess it had to happen to me before I could understand what all of those other people were talking about.
You know, as I think about it, all of your products are knock-offs of someone else's work. Where's the talent in that?
You think your customer service is stellar, but in reality it is simply lip-service. Anytime your customers have encountered a problem, it has been the fault of someone else. You have always been the victim. Such-and-such components are hard to find. So-and-so left town and screwed me. The bank won't give me a loan. The dog ate my homework.
It is amateur hour at Boundary Engineering, and the only regret I have is not heeding the warnings sooner.
I've read-up on a few of your other posts & issues lately, and honestly, I can't believe that there isn't some type of standard applied by these forums regarding who they allow to advertise. You appear to do much more harm than good to the Miata community.
All that said, I would love to see those carbon fiber brake cooling ducts you designed make it to the market place. Could you tell me how much of your vast engineering knowledge went into that design?
See? You are not the only one that can infer one thing by saying another. I'm just being sarcastic and direct about it, whereas you think you are fooling people.
Let me connect the dots in case they do not teach this until the last day of engineering school:
You are the engineer who thinks that brake rotors vent air radially, from the outside-in toward the center of the rotor. I am the layman grassroots racer that knows you have no idea what you are talking about. The suggestion, in case you missed it, is that you frequently have no idea what you are talking about.
Reply
0
0
02-21-2010, 11:07 AM
#26
Hello Will,
Evidently my machinist was concerned enough about it he went in on a Sunday morning at 7 A.M. and fired up the microscope. This is his report:
I'll let it stand as is. I wish you the very best in your ventures, and hope your racing season goes well.
Travis
Evidently my machinist was concerned enough about it he went in on a Sunday morning at 7 A.M. and fired up the microscope. This is his report:
I looked at the cylinder area under the microscope and there is definitely metal embedded in the walls. I wish I could take a picture of it but I can't. The camera won't focus on the microscope lens.
Travis
Reply
0
0
02-21-2010, 03:35 PM
#27
Not wanting to step into the line of fire here but what do you want from Travis? Despite his beliefs that the part was not supplied faulty he supplied you with a new pump.
Yes I'm sure that the returns procedure could have been streamlined but bear in mind yours was the first pump to be returned.
I think that as a seller he has fulfilled his responsibilities and has gone to great lengths to try and prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
Of course If my engine build goes wrong when I fire it up sometime soon I place the blame solely on you Travis!!!!!!
Yes I'm sure that the returns procedure could have been streamlined but bear in mind yours was the first pump to be returned.
I think that as a seller he has fulfilled his responsibilities and has gone to great lengths to try and prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
Of course If my engine build goes wrong when I fire it up sometime soon I place the blame solely on you Travis!!!!!!
Reply
0
0
02-22-2010, 03:51 PM
#28
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 200
Total Cats: 1
I opened up my stkck pump and I was glad I did. I have found aot of black sludge in the pump. There was no wear on the alloy parts. The gearrings had scratches from fabricating. Must have happened at the mazda plant.
But I also found marks of wear on the steel piston I cannot explain. When I took it out of the hot ultrasonic cleaner I found out the relief valve was jammed. I guess the design is not that good.
Why a steel piston in an alloy cilinder? Well.. Because we can't pay for a proper construktion in a mass-production car, I am afraid. And most of the time it works just fine..
As for the pics I have seen: looks like it was crancked with no oil in it at first and then got oil, but damage was done. Could have hapened because of a leak in the oil pickup pipe gasket.
Somehow there must be debris in that engine. I have seen folks that sandblasted manifolds with alluminiumoxide. Leftovers got in the engine.. Those partikels are superhard to find in the engine but do a lot of damage.
But I also found marks of wear on the steel piston I cannot explain. When I took it out of the hot ultrasonic cleaner I found out the relief valve was jammed. I guess the design is not that good.
Why a steel piston in an alloy cilinder? Well.. Because we can't pay for a proper construktion in a mass-production car, I am afraid. And most of the time it works just fine..
As for the pics I have seen: looks like it was crancked with no oil in it at first and then got oil, but damage was done. Could have hapened because of a leak in the oil pickup pipe gasket.
Somehow there must be debris in that engine. I have seen folks that sandblasted manifolds with alluminiumoxide. Leftovers got in the engine.. Those partikels are superhard to find in the engine but do a lot of damage.
Reply
0
0
02-23-2010, 11:37 PM
#29
Failure Analysis is complete:
I'm pasting the conclusion of the analysis but the pictures and full document are attached to this post. The document is long at 34 pages, but its full of pictures and information about the pump that backs up our earlier analysis.
I feel I did go outside of what would be considered professional by blindly accusing the machine shop or mechanic of negligence. We can't know where the particles come from, and because of that I apologize for accusing any shops or parties blindly.
It was also never my intention to sound "arrogant" in any of these conversations. All I was trying to do was just inform why we don't touch certain parts and what our standards are. I was also giving reason for why we don't modify certain parts of the pump. We could modify all parts of these pumps, but we feel that the pumps are the best value for the money the consumer can spend. These other enhancements would be done if they provided a reasonable dollar to performance ratio but we feel they do not.
Any use of "name dropping" was only for the purpose of stating that I try to draw from a lot of experts to develop my products and make them safe for you guys to buy. I would never want to be the root cause of any failures or have any of my products fail period. The only way that I can rule this out is to ask experts what they think of methods. I always have someone else give my work a look over. That's all I really wanted to show people.
Stuart has offered to have the customer over at his shop so that he can talk with him personally, and he has also offered for the customer to call him to speak with him personally.
Below is Stuarts word for word email to me:
If anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer them.
I'm pasting the conclusion of the analysis but the pictures and full document are attached to this post. The document is long at 34 pages, but its full of pictures and information about the pump that backs up our earlier analysis.
I feel I did go outside of what would be considered professional by blindly accusing the machine shop or mechanic of negligence. We can't know where the particles come from, and because of that I apologize for accusing any shops or parties blindly.
It was also never my intention to sound "arrogant" in any of these conversations. All I was trying to do was just inform why we don't touch certain parts and what our standards are. I was also giving reason for why we don't modify certain parts of the pump. We could modify all parts of these pumps, but we feel that the pumps are the best value for the money the consumer can spend. These other enhancements would be done if they provided a reasonable dollar to performance ratio but we feel they do not.
Any use of "name dropping" was only for the purpose of stating that I try to draw from a lot of experts to develop my products and make them safe for you guys to buy. I would never want to be the root cause of any failures or have any of my products fail period. The only way that I can rule this out is to ask experts what they think of methods. I always have someone else give my work a look over. That's all I really wanted to show people.
Stuart has offered to have the customer over at his shop so that he can talk with him personally, and he has also offered for the customer to call him to speak with him personally.
Below is Stuarts word for word email to me:
Travis,
I have over 31 years of machine tool spindle manufacturing and repairing. During that time I developed failure analysis techniques when spindles were returned after a bearing failure. I hope my experience and expertise can help clear up any misgivings about the cause of failure of the relief valve on the returned high volume pump.
I have sent you photos of the gears, the housing, the cylinder and the piston. Each picture shows unusual wear of the parts. Let me begin by listing my tests and observations.
Hardness
1) I did a harness test on the piston. The results were 25Rc. I tested both the end and the side and the results were the same. Using a file on the top, I tested it and it is as hard as a file.
2) I did a harness test on the gears and the outer was 14Rc and the inner was 16Rc.
3) I did a hardness test on the casting and the hardness was less than 1Rc.
Dimensions
1) Relief piston measures .6287-.6290
2) Cylinder measures .6305 above and below the score marks
3) Outer gear measures .4086 wide, OD measures 3.1352
4) Inner gear measures .4078 wide, bore measures 1.673, 1.481 across the flats
5) Tip clearance is .008
6) Body clearance is .005
7) Side clearance is .0015
8) The depth of the gear bore in the housing measured with a depth mike reads .411-.4125
Visual inspection with 10X microscope and 10X optical comparator
1) The gears show signs on their face of rubbing the aluminum housing. There doesn't appear to be any wear, just signs of rubbing. The outer gear has a few marks on it from the saw when the material was cut that did not clean up in the turning operation. The surface finish of the gears is 125 micro inches.
2) The gear teeth show multiple pock marks of varying depths and widths on their teeth. Some pocks are wider than .01, unfortunately the depth is something I cannot measure.
3) The piston has multiple scoring marks on the OD. Some are the whole length, others go about half way. There are even some scratch marks that circle the piston but I believe them to be from removing the piston after the damage.
4) The housing's cylinder walls have multiple scoring marks as well. There are bits of a foreign material embedded in the wall. This material is magnetic as I chipped a piece out and tested it with a magnet.
5) The bore of the housing where the large gear rides show a couple of small score marks.
6) The bore of the housing were the inner gear rides shows some wear on the top left as looking from the back.
7) The bottom of the bore where the gears ride shows some wear on the inner surface near the crank seal hole at the top left as looking from the back.
8) The spring and retainer appear normal.
9) The back cover showed wear and grooving up to .001 deep.
10) The pipe plug on the output side appears peened.
I do not believe the pump was started dry as I would expect to see the housing welded to the gears or signs there of. What I believe happened is a harder than 25Rc material entered the pump. I believe it was above 25Rc because of the scoring on the piston. It would also explain the depth and width of the pock marks on the gears. The harder the material, the deeper the penetration and a softer material would flatten as opposed to dig in. I believe the material was pumped to the relief piston and due to the clearance between the wall and piston, the pressure of the oil pushed the material down around the piston where it caused the piston to stick. When the engine warmed up, the cylinder expanded and the piston moved which caused the material to imbed into the walls of the cylinder where it would score the piston as it moved. When the engine cooled, the cylinder contracted and the material dug into the piston again causing it to stick when the engine was cold. This process continued for every cool down, warm up cycle.
I believe the material entered the pump and not originated in the pump for the following reason. The sides of the gears have no wear or scoring marks. Also the OD of the large gear has no wear or scoring marks. If the grease that was used for assembly had a foreign material in it, I would expect to see wear and scoring in those areas. The only places it shows up are on all the teeth of the gears and the relief valve.
In conclusion, I do not believe the pump was defective. The measurements are all in tolerance and there is no sign of negligence by any of the party's involved. I do not believe anyone to be at fault as there is no way to determine what the material is, where it is from and how it got there. I do believe it was an unfortunate happenstance.
If you or your customer have any questions, please feel free to call me.
Sincerely,
Stuart Dunham
I have over 31 years of machine tool spindle manufacturing and repairing. During that time I developed failure analysis techniques when spindles were returned after a bearing failure. I hope my experience and expertise can help clear up any misgivings about the cause of failure of the relief valve on the returned high volume pump.
I have sent you photos of the gears, the housing, the cylinder and the piston. Each picture shows unusual wear of the parts. Let me begin by listing my tests and observations.
Hardness
1) I did a harness test on the piston. The results were 25Rc. I tested both the end and the side and the results were the same. Using a file on the top, I tested it and it is as hard as a file.
2) I did a harness test on the gears and the outer was 14Rc and the inner was 16Rc.
3) I did a hardness test on the casting and the hardness was less than 1Rc.
Dimensions
1) Relief piston measures .6287-.6290
2) Cylinder measures .6305 above and below the score marks
3) Outer gear measures .4086 wide, OD measures 3.1352
4) Inner gear measures .4078 wide, bore measures 1.673, 1.481 across the flats
5) Tip clearance is .008
6) Body clearance is .005
7) Side clearance is .0015
8) The depth of the gear bore in the housing measured with a depth mike reads .411-.4125
Visual inspection with 10X microscope and 10X optical comparator
1) The gears show signs on their face of rubbing the aluminum housing. There doesn't appear to be any wear, just signs of rubbing. The outer gear has a few marks on it from the saw when the material was cut that did not clean up in the turning operation. The surface finish of the gears is 125 micro inches.
2) The gear teeth show multiple pock marks of varying depths and widths on their teeth. Some pocks are wider than .01, unfortunately the depth is something I cannot measure.
3) The piston has multiple scoring marks on the OD. Some are the whole length, others go about half way. There are even some scratch marks that circle the piston but I believe them to be from removing the piston after the damage.
4) The housing's cylinder walls have multiple scoring marks as well. There are bits of a foreign material embedded in the wall. This material is magnetic as I chipped a piece out and tested it with a magnet.
5) The bore of the housing where the large gear rides show a couple of small score marks.
6) The bore of the housing were the inner gear rides shows some wear on the top left as looking from the back.
7) The bottom of the bore where the gears ride shows some wear on the inner surface near the crank seal hole at the top left as looking from the back.
8) The spring and retainer appear normal.
9) The back cover showed wear and grooving up to .001 deep.
10) The pipe plug on the output side appears peened.
I do not believe the pump was started dry as I would expect to see the housing welded to the gears or signs there of. What I believe happened is a harder than 25Rc material entered the pump. I believe it was above 25Rc because of the scoring on the piston. It would also explain the depth and width of the pock marks on the gears. The harder the material, the deeper the penetration and a softer material would flatten as opposed to dig in. I believe the material was pumped to the relief piston and due to the clearance between the wall and piston, the pressure of the oil pushed the material down around the piston where it caused the piston to stick. When the engine warmed up, the cylinder expanded and the piston moved which caused the material to imbed into the walls of the cylinder where it would score the piston as it moved. When the engine cooled, the cylinder contracted and the material dug into the piston again causing it to stick when the engine was cold. This process continued for every cool down, warm up cycle.
I believe the material entered the pump and not originated in the pump for the following reason. The sides of the gears have no wear or scoring marks. Also the OD of the large gear has no wear or scoring marks. If the grease that was used for assembly had a foreign material in it, I would expect to see wear and scoring in those areas. The only places it shows up are on all the teeth of the gears and the relief valve.
In conclusion, I do not believe the pump was defective. The measurements are all in tolerance and there is no sign of negligence by any of the party's involved. I do not believe anyone to be at fault as there is no way to determine what the material is, where it is from and how it got there. I do believe it was an unfortunate happenstance.
If you or your customer have any questions, please feel free to call me.
Sincerely,
Stuart Dunham
Last edited by TravisR; 02-24-2010 at 02:47 PM.
Reply
0
0
02-25-2010, 03:34 PM
#30
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 23
Total Cats: 0
Hi Jason,
I received your information for swapping out your replacement gears. Unfortunately I do not have any with a tighter tolerance in stock. The next run of the stock gears will have tighter tip 2 tip clearances since more people have been requesting that. I know you have been waiting so I am going to modify a set of the high flow gears for you tomorrow as they have the clearance you requested. I will overnight them to you at no charge.
Thank you for your business!
Stuart Dunham
I received your information for swapping out your replacement gears. Unfortunately I do not have any with a tighter tolerance in stock. The next run of the stock gears will have tighter tip 2 tip clearances since more people have been requesting that. I know you have been waiting so I am going to modify a set of the high flow gears for you tomorrow as they have the clearance you requested. I will overnight them to you at no charge.
Thank you for your business!
Stuart Dunham
Reply
0
0
02-25-2010, 07:22 PM
#31
Elite Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,420
Total Cats: 84
Thanks.
If they are arriving on Saturday, they need to be sent to my home address. I will PM it.
If arriving on a weekday, they should go to my work address which is where the original gears were sent.
If they are arriving on Saturday, they need to be sent to my home address. I will PM it.
If arriving on a weekday, they should go to my work address which is where the original gears were sent.
Reply
0
0
02-25-2010, 11:01 PM
#32
Senior Member
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Roselle, Illinois
Posts: 849
Total Cats: -34
well i skimmed most of this, i as well bought a blue printed billet pump, should i take it apart and inspect anything? does it have any warranty travis? i did not get any paper work with it. i dont doubt you travis but if theirs as any concern about gear tolerance or sticking presure relief valves i rather have it fixed now, as they say an ounce of prevention is worth........ i cant remember
Reply
0
0
02-26-2010, 07:13 AM
#33
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 23
Total Cats: 0
well i skimmed most of this, i as well bought a blue printed billet pump, should i take it apart and inspect anything? does it have any warranty travis? i did not get any paper work with it. i dont doubt you travis but if theirs as any concern about gear tolerance or sticking presure relief valves i rather have it fixed now, as they say an ounce of prevention is worth........ i cant remember
Let me be clear about the tolerances. The high volume pumps use a different gear set than the replacement set. The high volume gear sets are fitted to each housing and a spec sheet is provided with those clearances. If you did not receive the sheet, then you bought the pump before we started documenting the information. The tolerances have not changed and your pump is in spec. If you would like me to provide a sheet with the specs, you can return the pump and I will disassemble and get the information for you. We prefer you do not disassemble the pump.
The standard replacement gears have been manufactured with a looser tolerance because of the differences in the pumps. We have tried 4 different manufacturers of pumps and got 4 different sets of clearances. So we have to make the gears so they fit every stock pump in the field. Sometimes the clearances are out of spec for a certain pump and if that is the case, we will correct the issue by replacing the gears. This is what happened in Jason's case.
As far as the relief valve goes, remember the oil pump is the only part of the system that is lubricated with unfiltered oil. Any particulate matter can effect the valve as seen in the case above. We are going to provide the dimensions for the relief valve in the next run of pumps.
If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.
Thank you,
Stuart
Reply
0
0
02-26-2010, 01:35 PM
#34
Elite Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,420
Total Cats: 84
I measured the stock gear thicknesses of the gears from my stock 2000 oil pump, which showed 0.0025" clearance to the backplate in the case, with a Mitutoyo digital micrometer, at 3 points each :
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
Reply
0
0
02-26-2010, 02:53 PM
#35
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 23
Total Cats: 0
I measured the stock gear thicknesses of the gears from my stock 2000 oil pump, which showed 0.0025" clearance to the backplate in the case, with a Mitutoyo digital micrometer, at 3 points each :
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
Reply
0
0
02-26-2010, 02:54 PM
#36
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 23
Total Cats: 0
I measured the stock gear thicknesses of the gears from my stock 2000 oil pump, which showed 0.0025" clearance to the backplate in the case, with a Mitutoyo digital micrometer, at 3 points each :
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
inner gear: .37180, .37195, .37200
outer gear: .37220, .37240, .37245
Re: the loose clearance of the first set of gears I got, it was tip-to-tip clearance. I got the same measurement whether the gears were in my case or out. So it has nothing to do with the case.
Likewise my stock gears show .0035" tip to tip clearance regardless of whether it's measured in the case or not.
The gears leaving today have a body clearance of .004, a side clearance of .004 and a T2T clearance of .005 as tested with a stock housing.
Reply
0
0
02-28-2010, 08:28 PM
#37
i bought my gears from miataturbo. at least they are reputable. i havent seen one good thing come out of boundary.nothing but horror storys.
as for wildo... your a moron for running a filter that has a bypass in a race engine. this just proves it. if you were running a non bypass filter the oil would have had no choice but to be filtered. and if the filter was clogged. it woulda shown on your gauge and you coulda shut down right away. the oil goes from the pump directly to the filter, then back into the engine.
as for wildo... your a moron for running a filter that has a bypass in a race engine. this just proves it. if you were running a non bypass filter the oil would have had no choice but to be filtered. and if the filter was clogged. it woulda shown on your gauge and you coulda shut down right away. the oil goes from the pump directly to the filter, then back into the engine.
Reply
0
0
03-01-2010, 04:45 AM
#39
alot of oil filters dont. you have to do some research. look through catalogs. as long as it has a 20mm thread and the right size o-ring it will work on a miata block. i use a chevy type filter on my car, with a filter relocation kit. the bigger the filter the better.
Reply
0
0
03-01-2010, 08:20 AM
#40
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 23
Total Cats: 0
I invite you to visit me at the CT manufacturing facility. It may change your mind about Boundary.
Stuart
Reply
0
0
