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Old 09-28-2009, 10:01 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach929 View Post
did your wideband agree with the dynos?
yes
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:02 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
What's sad is the dyno looks fantastic for a turbo that size on a 1.8L up until 4.5K
Which is about the time is starts spraying. Maybe I should have had him tune without the juice first
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:06 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by thymer View Post
Which is about the time is starts spraying. Maybe I should have had him tune without the juice first
Depends on what you're doing with it. If you're using it as a safegaurd, then yes tune w/o it. If you're using it to add timing, which by looking at your table this is what you're doing, then no you can't. Unless you want to break stuff.

I don't see injector duty cycle on your graph. What is your master fuel set to?
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:06 AM   #44
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I mean your ignition timing isn't very aggressive and you're spraying... probably a combination of the two are working against you.
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:22 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
So what do Hydra/MS do that Link doesn't? The same tune should should produce the same numbers right? If they're both tuned to 11.5AFR with the same spark table, hp should be identical. Resolution helps driveability/part throttle fine tuning, not necessarily peak numbers. I could see 50hp from a SAFC fuel tune only to a standalone fuel/timing tune, but 50hp from equally tuned standalones? seriously?
Newer, faster, more precise. 16x5 to 32x32. 5 column load values + slow processor = fail.

These quotes are taken in context

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
In addition to the resolution I think it has a lot to do with precision. For example, a slower processor may not be as precise as a faster processor (especially wth limited resolution), meaning that when it says it fires and when it really fires may not be exact- in terms of hysteresis between spark events as the motor turns. (Just a guess.) That means your spark map in your ECU would have to be set to the lowest common denominator, which may be restrictive to potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
If spark is spark and fuel is fuel, why aren't we all still running carburetors? If computers are all the same, how come I don't still use my Commodore 64? I'm not a computer or software engineer so I can't really "bench race" all the theoretical answers- all I can do is work with & tune the systems to the best they can be and report on the results..
Attachemnt is Skip Cannon's GT2560r BP4W powered Catherham with 10psi EBC Link vs 11psi MBC Hydra
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dyno tuned 3071-linkvshydra.jpg  
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Old 09-28-2009, 10:32 AM   #46
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@Dyno of Skip Cannon's GT2560r BP4W powered Catherham
WOW... Link = EPIC FAIL.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:16 AM   #47
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5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.

Thymer, you're using water only, no meth?
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:19 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.

Thymer, you're using water only, no meth?
50/50 meth/water

I do have a couple old VW bug carbs laying around...
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARTech View Post
5 rpm points? Ok, you win. On the carb analogy, I bet that car would make more power on carb than the link Processor speed isn't a big issue for power runs since there are only two parametes load and rpm. Didn't consider spark hysteresis. Never knew it was a problem.

Thymer, you're using water only, no meth?
5 MAP points.

I don't see how a power pull would be any less difficult than cruising. Really, it seems like it would be more difficult because it's required to be most precise.

It's never just two parameters. It's got at least 5
MAP, RPM, CLT, AIT, Knock and is probably running all sorts of loops

IE
If CLT < X
Then Fuel * 110%
Else Fuel * 100%

It's also looking for knock, looking for air temp (pulls power if air temp exceeds a set threshold), is running closed loop EBC, looking for neutral and clutch switches, running the keypad. And it's gotta squirt and spark the car. Frankly it's doing all kinds of stuff, and when it was new people were claiming the processor was underpowered.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:39 AM   #50
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Needz moar better ecuz.

I'm pretty sure I'm making close to 230whp, maybe more on my t3 60trim at 13psi.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:40 AM   #51
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I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.

Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.

Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here.
EGT's were pretty low actually, probably from the juice.

I agree, something else is going on here. My first thought was the timing belt but it's dead nuts on, I triple checked. The other thing I thought was weird was how high the torque was.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I tell you what... I'll sell you my hydra with my awesome map that got me that same power at half the boost on a smaller turbo and see what it does for you.

Seriously, I'd love to see your EGTs. I bet they are way up in melty valve territory. I dont think it's just the Link though. There's more going on here.
Can that hydra be upgraded to the newest version?
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:57 AM   #54
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6.2GPH really is a lot. Like you said, you should tune without injection first since it just adds complexity. At 6.2GPH (390cc) it's likely that the mixture wants to run richer since Meth burns at 6:1 stoich compared to gasolines 14.7:1. If my math is right the mixture (4 injectors [email protected]% plus one [email protected]% spraying methane) would be stoich at 13.65AFR and a comparable safe 12:1AFR for boost on gasoline would be 11.13AFR on the gas/meth mixture. Running lean is also likely the reason you cant advance timing without introducing knock.

Last edited by ARTech; 09-28-2009 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 09-28-2009, 11:59 AM   #55
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Me thinks too much water is killing combustion. You are probably at like a 50% water to fuel ratio. Way over the recommended 25% max.

Also I have another theory that I thought about just now.
Link = failboat
Redskins = failboat
Link = Redskins

Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks!
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
Also I have another theory that I thought about just now.
Link = failboat
Redskins = failboat
Link = Redskins

Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks!
This one will twist your ******* mind

Lions = fail
Lions > redskins

Therefor
Redskins<fail
And
Link<fail
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:01 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
Me thinks too much water is killing combustion. You are probably at like a 50% water to fuel ratio. Way over the recommended 25% max.

Also I have another theory that I thought about just now.
Link = failboat
Redskins = failboat
Link = Redskins

Your motor is being run by the Redskin! No wonder is sucks!
I know the Link isn't the best choice out there but it's what I have and after the $$ I put into the engine my budget was running pretty thin. I wasn't expecting 400 hp but I was expecting more than 265, even with the link.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:11 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
This one will twist your ******* mind

Lions = fail
Lions > redskins

Therefor
Redskins<fail
And
Link<fail
Your proof is flawless. Good job sir.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:19 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
5 MAP points.

I don't see how a power pull would be any less difficult than cruising. Really, it seems like it would be more difficult because it's required to be most precise.

It's never just two parameters. It's got at least 5
MAP, RPM, CLT, AIT, Knock and is probably running all sorts of loops

IE
If CLT < X
Then Fuel * 110%
Else Fuel * 100%

It's also looking for knock, looking for air temp (pulls power if air temp exceeds a set threshold), is running closed loop EBC, looking for neutral and clutch switches, running the keypad. And it's gotta squirt and spark the car. Frankly it's doing all kinds of stuff, and when it was new people were claiming the processor was underpowered.
Not really more precise. How much easier is it to tune WOT than part throttle?

Closed loop is a preset value whereas open loop is a constant battle to find the best value. You have accel/decel afr, throtte deltas, load deltas, pumps, etc.

Either way, it's settled, link sucks.
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Old 09-28-2009, 12:21 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thymer View Post
Can that hydra be upgraded to the newest version?
yes, but i'm not sure what's involved. talk to Jeremy at FM.


I know it can control water injection though.
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