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Evans Waterless coolant
I am tearing my engine down this winter and am thinking about refilling it with this waterless coolant. They now have a high performance formula and I am wondering if anyone here has tried it on a track car? This stuffs boiling point is 375*, so should help with hot spots. It is non corrosive. http://www.evanscooling.com/
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Theres a thread on this every few months either here on on M-Net. I want to try it, I also want to make sure my cooling system is leak free before I try it, which has been the delay. But it always seems that no one has used it.
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i don't see why this wouldn't work
now for the track...you may want to get a MSDS for it and see if it is acceptable. i think some tracks requiere water only in case of crashes, there is less to clena up.. |
Saw Jay Leno's Garage episode on this stuff. Pretty cool. I'd wanna clean the everliving life out of the engine water passages and jackets before refilling with this stuff.
Actually I'm currently trying to figure out how to do that. Engine is out and on a stand, but I'm not sure if that helps |
The guy on the video said you can have upto 3% water with no ill effects. I would think turning the engine upside down on the stand would get most out and then use air pressure for the heater core and you should be good to go.
My main concern for the track is how well does it conduct thermo cooling? Antifreeze raises the boiling point but is not as efficient at cooling as water. |
It doesnt conduct heat as well as water in theory. But there also shouldnt be any localized boiling with it, so it might conduct heat better. Its really hard to say. Theoretically you can run the car hotter without damaging it as long as the higher temp doesnt create clearance issues with the pistons.
The water should eventually boil its way out after running the car since PEG doesnt raise the boiling temperature of the water left in it. I'd probably run the car with napa rad flush by the instructions then run the evans flush and then fill it. |
NorCal Rotary and Roadsters • View topic - Zero pressure cooling system (Evans NPG propylene glycol)
This is from 2010, these guys probably have a bit more data now
Originally Posted by Minime
go here: Home » Engine Cooling Systems
I can tell you two guys that I know personally and highly recommend their opinions of all things automotive that run evans NPG in their hardcore turbo miatas: JasonCsbb, aka Jason Cuadra(he will probably chime in here) 2/3rdsCobra - not a member of this forum, but is very active on mturbo.net and miataforum There are several good reasons to switch to it and really the ONLY possible reason you might NOT want to run it(which is not really a big deal) is that if you do happen to have a coolant leak and you need to top off or refill the system you will have to search for another propylene glycol coolant such as Sierra brand coolant. You absolutely cannot mix water with propylene glycol and in fact you have to flush your system prior to refilling with evans. They sell a flush solution, but you can just buy a few gallons of Sierra and use that to dilute what little water is left in the system after you drain the coolant the first time. Key reasons to switch: Zero pressure system - no more blown hoses and no more buying replacement high pressure radiator caps. Eliminates hot spots in the head(which is the primary cause of pre-combustion detonation) and the block. Because there is no water vaporization(no hot spots) you can run significantly higher coolant temps without warping the head and causing detonation. No need to let the turbo cool down, just turn the engine off and you will not hear the popping and hissing sounds as you hear when you run water + coolant - again, this is H2O vaporizing inside the hot turbo. More even cooling, again - no h2o vaporization, so no hot spots. NO corrosion, no rust, no scale deposits inside the cooling passages = wide open/clean coolant passages to allow better flow. Case in point - When I was running MiniMe on the track BEFORE I rebuilt the engine and went turbo I was running a PWR aluminum radiator + I had the stage-2 cooling fan setup from FM(big ass SPAL paddle fan and smaller SPAL fan), wired together. On a 100*+ day I would only be able to run 2-3 laps before I pegged the temp gauge and had to do a cool down lap. I did not have a coolant reroute fwiw. After I put on the turbo, the only other mod I was running NPG-R and added an an oil cooler - I still had no coolant reroute. On a hot day I would still peg the coolant gauge, but it took a bit longer(like 3-4 laps) and it krept up slower. I also ran one full lap without noticing the gauge was COMPLETELY pegged off the gauge. I know for a fact if I was running water + coolant or even pure water + purple ice/redline waterwetter I would have blown the head gasket and warped the shit out of the head. I was seriously worried, but I drove off the track and then around the paddock for a bit to let it cool off. I then drove out on the main road (out at Thill) for a few miles and when I got back to the paddock I popped the hood and NO leaks, NO noises - all was well. That was enough proof to me that this shit works a hell of a lot better than water + coolant. My buddy Myron(2/3rdsCobra) was the one who turned me onto it. He performed a test and drained his 50/50 dilution of coolant to distilled water. Within one day the coolant and water had completely separated. Think about what this does inside your head and block after you shut the car off for even just 1/2 a day - the water separates and starts to heavily corrode your block and leave deposits inside all of the cooling passages in the block and head. Not good. It's the shit - I have 6 gallons of it waiting to go into the racecar and into minime's engine(once I get it R&R'd with the wiseco pistons). |
I run the stuff in my dirt bike. With water based coolant, it would puke it guts out on steep/technical trails at altitude. With the Evens, never had it happen again. It might not run any cooler, but the coolant stays in the system. I would use it in my car if I had a cooling problem, but I havent had a problem.
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Is this stuff track friendly? Meaning - if I burst a hose while on track, will the cleanup crew have to come out and clean it up while the wrecker crew pulls the other cars out of the armco that spun from it? Being glycol based, I assume not...
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Originally Posted by GeneSplicer
(Post 1061923)
Is this stuff track friendly? Meaning - if I burst a hose while on track, will the cleanup crew have to come out and clean it up while the wrecker crew pulls the other cars out of the armco that spun from it? Being glycol based, I assume not...
I use a water wetter with distilled water. I generally see a 7 to 10 degree difference between distilled water and distilled + wetter. The generic version (green)worked better than the big name brand stuff. |
My brother ran it with his Aprilia Daytona Sportbike team in 2009.
It works if you use it correctly, but it's not magic. You have to find a zero pressure cap, you have to get every last bit of water out of the system for it to be really effective, and you have to be willing to run the system at ~250+F, which scares people for some reason. You also have to keep an eye on oil temps, as oil becomes the temperature limiting fluid in the engine at that point. Also, most tracks will allow NPG-R if you ask the safety steward. You also have almost no chance of bursting a hose in a zero pressure system, and if you smashed the car up hard enough to let the coolant out, you probably oiled the track too, and I'd rather drive over coolant than oil... |
Do we need to run larger than the stock overflow tank? IIRC the NPG fluid expands like 3 times more than normal 50/50 mix with temperature.
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You don't HAVE to run a low pressure cap. I run a 5 psi cap fwiw.
No you don't need a larger overflow tank. I do notice the tank level goes up and down more with temperature. |
KWS Aprilia ran OEM over flow bottles too, I believe. I imagine the stock over flow bottle on a Miata is probably twice as large as it needs to be to accomodate Grandma's maintenance schedule.
BTW, NPG-R smells like grape jelly, but it DOES NOT taste like it. Avoid getting that stuff in your mouth at all cost. It is some serious kind of foul. |
I knew someone who habitually tasted fluids that dripped to the ground and could identify them by taste. I dunno if he's still alive.
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On the Jay Leno video the guy says it is not poisonous to dogs or cats if spilt on the ground, and that it can be injested. I don't know how good it taste, but nice to know that if my dog licks a little he won't die.
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Originally Posted by jmann
(Post 1062027)
On the Jay Leno video the guy says it is not poisonous to dogs or cats if spilt on the ground, and that it can be injested. I don't know how good it taste, but nice to know that if my dog licks a little he won't die.
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Polyethylene glycol is a prescription laxative, iirc. They give you a jug to drink the night before you get certain procedures done. It ain't pretty what it does to a fella.
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Thats it! I'm adding a jug of Miralax to my coolant... and watch it shit everywhere :)
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...yz1QDEqD7ZMtlg |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1061631)
Saw Jay Leno's Garage episode on this stuff. Pretty cool. I'd wanna clean the everliving life out of the engine water passages and jackets before refilling with this stuff.
Actually I'm currently trying to figure out how to do that. Engine is out and on a stand, but I'm not sure if that helps In order to get all the water out, we filled the system with rubbing alcohol, then drained it and blew some compressed air in it, then left the cap and drain open overnight. Filled with Evans and no issues. |
I don't buy the claim that the high boiling point eliminates hot spots. It takes a comparatively large quantity of heat energy to boil water (or any fluid.) What that means is that it's very difficult to develop hot spots above the boiling point of the coolant. If a localized spot goes above the boiling point then it will cause some coolant to boil. Just enough coolant will boil to bring the temp of the hotspot down to below the boiling point. The 'steam' that results moves along with the rest of the coolant and eventually recondenses releasing the heat energy that it picked up at the hotspot.
To repeat: hotspots are unlikely above the boiling point of the coolant. If the boiling point is 350F, then hotspots as high as 350F are possible. If you use a coolant with a boiling point of 230F (at 15 PSI or whatever your cap blows at) then hotspots above 230F will be unlikely. This is freshman physics. |
Originally Posted by DaveC
(Post 1062194)
I don't buy the claim that the high boiling point eliminates hot spots. It takes a comparatively large quantity of heat energy to boil water (or any fluid.) What that means is that it's very difficult to develop hot spots above the boiling point of the coolant. If a localized spot goes above the boiling point then it will cause some coolant to boil. Just enough coolant will boil to bring the temp of the hotspot down to below the boiling point. The 'steam' that results moves along with the rest of the coolant and eventually recondenses releasing the heat energy that it picked up at the hotspot.
To repeat: hotspots are unlikely above the boiling point of the coolant. If the boiling point is 350F, then hotspots as high as 350F are possible. If you use a coolant with a boiling point of 230F (at 15 PSI or whatever your cap blows at) then hotspots above 230F will be unlikely. This is freshman physics. |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1062204)
Ever watch a pot of water boil? You see how it forms air bubble on the bottom before it actually starts boiling and before a temp prob suspended in the water reads 100*C?
Ideally, the cooling system in an engine stays below the boiling point. But if localized hot spots do appear then bubbles form cooling the spot and carrying away the heat. The point is that the hot spots are able to get only as high as the boiling point before the Cooling Bubbles form. Raising the boiling temp of the coolant doesn't help prevent hot spots, it hurts. Raising it from 100C to 200C hurts a lot! Thats more or less what we're talking about, those air bubbles sitting on the surface are the devil. |
Originally Posted by DaveC
(Post 1062255)
Exactly! Those little air bubbles are the consequence of hot spots that reach a temp above the boiling point before the rest of the bottom of the pan. A little bubble forms 'using up' the heat at that spot and keeping it just below the boiling point. If the bubbles didn't form and remove localized heat then those spots would become hotter.
Ideally, the cooling system in an engine stays below the boiling point. But if localized hot spots do appear then bubbles form cooling the spot and carrying away the heat. The point is that the hot spots are able to get only as high as the boiling point before the Cooling Bubbles form. Raising the boiling temp of the coolant doesn't help prevent hot spots, it hurts. Raising it from 100C to 200C hurts a lot! I've heard of many stories like this with Evans, and saying that raising the boiling temp of the coolant hurts seems to fly in the face of what some seriously respected posters on this forum say (I.e., going to a higher psi cap). |
Lol @ cooling bubbles. Right, the air carriers away more heat than the liquid eh? :bsflag:
The bubbles are a sign that the liquid in that area has gotten so hot it has undergone a phase change. Though that phase change is absorbing some of that heat energy, after the bubble is created that spot is no longer being cooled. At least that's my understanding. While a hot spot caused the bubble, it certainly doesn't seem to me that these are in any way "cooling bubbles." They are getting in the way of more liquid coming to carry away the heat. No bubbles = constant liquid contact with the hot surfaces = less extreme hot spots. |
I don't see the bubbles staying where they are if there's coolant flowing.
But, I suppose cavitation could be reduced. I'll go along with that. |
One real test is to see if a detonation-advance-limited motor can run more advance on the dyno.
But alas only one magazine has done a test like that. |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1062117)
Polyethylene glycol is a prescription laxative, iirc. They give you a jug to drink the night before you get certain procedures done. It ain't pretty what it does to a fella.
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Originally Posted by DaveC
(Post 1062255)
Exactly! Those little air bubbles are the consequence of hot spots that reach a temp above the boiling point before the rest of the bottom of the pan. A little bubble forms 'using up' the heat at that spot and keeping it just below the boiling point. If the bubbles didn't form and remove localized heat then those spots would become hotter.
Ideally, the cooling system in an engine stays below the boiling point. But if localized hot spots do appear then bubbles form cooling the spot and carrying away the heat. The point is that the hot spots are able to get only as high as the boiling point before the Cooling Bubbles form. Raising the boiling temp of the coolant doesn't help prevent hot spots, it hurts. Raising it from 100C to 200C hurts a lot! Not sure what you mean by "the devil." |
A buddy of mine used the Evans and it was thicker than water and seemed to get thicker over time, which I found scary. It seemed like a lot of extra drag on the water pump and subsequent horsepower loss.
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I don't get why we are so hung up on the formation of a bubble due to a hotspot.
Water in the kettle is stationary, coolant in a system has a pump motivating it all over the place. That particular hotspot will never cause a phase change on a group of water molecules, because they will never hang in one spot long enough to establish a meaningful relationship with a heat source. |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1062668)
A buddy of mine used the Evans and it was thicker than water
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Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1062690)
I don't get why we are so hung up on the formation of a bubble due to a hotspot.
Water in the kettle is stationary, coolant in a system has a pump motivating it all over the place. That particular hotspot will never cause a phase change on a group of water molecules, because they will never hang in one spot long enough to establish a meaningful relationship with a heat source. The question isn't, "Will bubbles in the coolant hang on long enough to have an effect?" The question is, "Does micro boiling happen (probably), and do the bubbles matter?" And the only way I know of to find out is empirical testing, which NASCAR has been courteous enough to conduct for us, and they seem to think this stuff is worth any compromises it comes with. It's not that expensive in the scheme of things, and it seems to work. I don't see any reason not to do it. |
Originally Posted by vehicular
(Post 1062725)
The power stroke happens in it's entirety in 15ms at 4000 rpm. Detonation happens in a fraction of the time it takes to complete a power stroke. The coolant in the cooling passages around the combustion chamber is moving at maybe 1-2m/s. The wall between the combustion chamber and the cooling passages is ~3mm thick aluminum. If microboiling happens, the bubble will absolutely hang on long enough to cause an effect in the combustion chamber.
The question isn't, "Will bubbles in the coolant hang on long enough to have an effect?" The question is, "Does micro boiling happen (probably), and do the bubbles matter?" And the only way I know of to find out is empirical testing, which NASCAR has been courteous enough to conduct for us, and they seem to think this stuff is worth any compromises it comes with. It's not that expensive in the scheme of things, and it seems to work. I don't see any reason not to do it. I still do not think a single combustion event will cause a microboil spot. It would take a series of those events - with exhaust and intake cycles in between - and enough new coolant would have moved into that particular spot by then. On a different but related note, I have seen a max of about 94C in coolant temps on the 5.3 Km F1 track on a July day. Max oil temp was 105C. I think a proper reroute, a double row 55 mm radiator, a functioning undertray and radiator ducting have a far more positive effect on cooling than trying to optimize heat transfer within the engine. Just my two cents. |
Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1062735)
Just my two cents.
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Cents are cents. Really.
I mean, I did not say "Just my two one hundredths of some country's monetary currency". Around here, it would be kurus (kurush or kuruş). In any rate, had I offered my opinion in Turkish currency, it would add up to about one cent. Currently two of our "Lira"s buy one $. |
In most heat transfer applications ethylene glycol-based fluids are your best choice because of their superior heat transfer efficiency. This efficiency is largely due to the lower viscosity of ethylene glycol solutions. Another benefit of this viscosity advantage is lower power consumption for re-circulation pumps and a lower minimum operating temperature. DOWTHERM™ SR-1, DOWTHERM 4000, or DOWCAL™ 10 fluids are EG based fluids. Propylene glycols are most commonly used in applications in which low acute oral toxicity is required, or for freeze protection where incidental contact with drinking water is possible. I think I'll stick with water & water wetter. |
Looks like evans isnt propylene glycol, or at least not entirely. The MSDS lists greater than 60% as ethylene glycol. It does have propylene glycol in it.
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Skimmed through it and it seems like some good info toward this debate. http://www.norosion.com/evanstest.htm
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Originally Posted by TorqueZombie
(Post 1062946)
Skimmed through it and it seems like some good info toward this debate. No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers
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Well yes. Just tossing it out there.
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1062936)
Looks like evans isnt propylene glycol, or at least not entirely. The MSDS lists greater than 60% as ethylene glycol. It does have propylene glycol in it.
Evans: $44/gallon 375*f boiling point 3% water Peak Long Life: $15/gallon 349*f boiling point 4% water Both are toxic and will kill you and your kitty. One is reasonably priced, the other includes a massive markup to pay for BigChin(tm) advertising. If you really think it's OK to run an engine well above safe operating temperatures, save yourself $30/gallon and run Peak Long Life at full strength. Your engine will self destruct long before it boils. http://images.peakauto.com/Peak%20Lo...v%20052013.pdf http://www.rx7club.com/attachments/3...ev-2-11-03-doc If that doesn't work go here All you wanted to know about Evans NPG+ (MSDS)!! - RX7Club.com Your thermal transfer properties will be shit, but the important thing is your coolant won't boil until well after the engine blows up. Go read some posts by our resident 1st place racers and see what they run. Hint: Their water content equals Peak's ethylene glycol content. Because |
Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1062888)
Cents are cents. Really.
I mean, I did not say "Just my two one hundredths of some country's monetary currency". My humor, good or bad, doesn't translate well to forums... |
Originally Posted by midpack
(Post 1062976)
Hmm the internets have lied to me. 66-70% actually. Compared to say, Peak Long Life Coolant at 90-97%.
Evans: $44/gallon 375*f boiling point 3% water Peak Long Life: $15/gallon 349*f boiling point 4% water However, Evans claim they have some proprietary additives.. so your DIY blend may not be the same <shrug>. |
Here's one article that discusses an Evans test on the dyno, reducing detonation:
Successful Big Block Engine Buildup - Hot Rod Magazine |
Originally Posted by TorqueZombie
(Post 1062946)
Skimmed through it and it seems like some good info toward this debate. No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers
After proper conversion to the Evans products, the average temperature of engine cylinder heads increased by 115-140oF, Evanscooling - Bob Is The Oil Guy |
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
(Post 1063215)
Evans is about 2/3rds ethylene glycol. Sierra antifreeze is propylene glycol. You could blend Peak and Sierra to get the same ratio of propylene and ethylene glycol.
However, Evans claim they have some proprietary additives.. so your DIY blend may not be the same <shrug>. |
The Evans spec is that you're allowed UP TO 3% water without significant degredation is effectiveness. There isn't any water already in it.
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Originally Posted by midpack
(Post 1063433)
The Sierra MSDS makes the same claims about proprietary additives. How are we to say one is better than the other. If you want a "waterless" .. pick up a jug of Peak Long Life full-strength antifreeze (from your local auto parts or big box store) and be done with it.
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The stuff provides comparable heat transfer by operating at a higher delta T. engine will be 10 to 15% hotter while stabilized at the same heat transfer rate. It can do that because it doesn’t boil as easily.
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There is at least 2% water in Evans as per their MSDS. Actual amount is not specified but it's listed above the 2% additive package and therefore has more of it.
If the engine is 10% hotter than normal, is the oil also 10% hotter? What causes a head to warp? Overall temperature or localized hot spots from boiled coolant? My google-fu has failed me. Of course I did discount every claim they make when seeing the "more info" link point back to their main page. Marketing != tech info |
With water or 50/50 EG/water, when the cylinder head reaches a certain temperature (way above the boiling point), the boiling on the surface is so bad an insulating layer of steam forms. At this point the cylinder head temperature will begin to rise very quickly leading to bad hostpots and detonation. Evans' claim to fame is that the boiling temperature is so high that this doesn't happen until a much higher average engine/coolant temperature.
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Originally Posted by midpack
(Post 1063642)
There is at least 2% water in Evans as per their MSDS. Actual amount is not specified but it's listed above the 2% additive package and therefore has more of it.
If the engine is 10% hotter than normal, is the oil also 10% hotter? What causes a head to warp? Overall temperature or localized hot spots from boiled coolant? My google-fu has failed me. Of course I did discount every claim they make when seeing the "more info" link point back to their main page. Marketing != tech info |
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
(Post 1063659)
Evans' claim to fame is that the boiling temperature is so high that this doesn't happen until a much higher average engine/coolant temperature.
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I wonder if 2/3rd Peak and 1/3rd Sierra has advantages over 100% Peak. Why would Evans mix them?
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Could you attach temp sensors to the head and block and do some back to back testing with data logs synched to a head and block temperature recorder? Oil temps too.
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I guess someone could drop $100 bucks on a spark plug ring cylinder head temp thermonuclear setup.
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REVIVE!
I was at a meet this past weekend and this guy with some weird charge piping was talking about waterless coolant as I observed his car had no overflow tank. Did anyone end up trying this? If the engine is run a bit hotter, what does this mean for the thermostat that's in the car? |
I'm just gonna leave this here...
Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix
(Post 1438869)
REVIVE!
I was at a meet this past weekend and this guy with some weird charge piping was talking about waterless coolant as I observed his car had no overflow tank. Did anyone end up trying this? If the engine is run a bit hotter, what does this mean for the thermostat that's in the car? |
Originally Posted by MetalMuffins
(Post 1438886)
I've just wasted8 minutes of my life to this guy ramble about his interaction with a name on the internet. Where the hell is the next video explaining why all of this is rubbish? Maybe this is what you meant to post: I don't have time to watch this right now, but in any event, I'm fine with my distilled+water wetter for now. I was just curious what the collective knowledge base had to say if there was real world experience. |
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