Head gasket questions. UPDATED WITH PICTURES!
#22
Cpt. Slow
Thread Starter
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,203
Total Cats: 1,138
Indeed, origional 3 cylinder diagnosis was done in the dark before I looked at the oil, and was born from my previous difficulties with my COPs. Would it be worth it to drain and refill the oil for the drive to try and save it? Or am I completely screwed in terms of getting this car to the garage 30 miles away.
#23
Cuelball, yes I did reuse it when I took my engine out, although I never took the head off, just the oil pan and valve cover. I never thought my overheating problems were HG gasket related. Or are you saying the over heating warped the head. That's another issues altogether that I hadn't thought of...
.
.
#24
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (16)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: where most people are Utarded
Posts: 1,296
Total Cats: 0
Curly, if the head is indeed warped, buy my tested and cleaned head I have for sale with the FelPro gasket. Let me know if you are interested and I will take some pictures. I will check in the garage when I get home to grab the gasket.
#26
Cpt. Slow
Thread Starter
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,203
Total Cats: 1,138
Is the headgasket the one kind of cardboard and has like a metal frame design, or is it the one that is completely metal with four layers held together by rivets?
Update: I took my chances, drained the oil, refilled and drove it to the GF's. I need to drain the water/oil and unbolt the head, otherwise it's ready to come off for inspection. Oil fill cap and valve cover had some white grease looking substance in it, like steamed oil water. Cams looks great still, I'm hoping I didn't do an obscene amount of damage. GF was following behind me the whole time with the engine lift in her ExTerra, and reported zero smoke.
#27
Cpt. Slow
Thread Starter
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,203
Total Cats: 1,138
Pictures for your delight.
Left to right, #4 and #3.
Left to right #2 and #1.
Bottom of head.
The next five photos are pretty obvious, all take from passenger side so far left is #4, right is #1.
Head gasket damage between 3&4
Slight damage between 3&2, you can tell since #3 isn't completely round anymore.
Damage between 2&1. It's hard to see, but it's similar to the damage between 3&4. This photo also shows my grievance with the head gasket. The hole in the block is tear drop shaped, where as the hole in the gasket is round. You can see how the tear drop shaped hole blasted the head gasket apart here. I hate to think about how much of this has come loose and circulated around my cooling system. WTF?
So it looks like between 1&2 and 3&4 the HG blew. You can see in the pictures of the gasket that it's nice and damaged. 1,2 and 3 pistons look the same, fairly black, while #4 is a little cleaner. It was full of water though from the car being tilted up, I had just soaked it up and wiped the piston clean before taking these pictures. How do you guys clean all the HG gunk off the block? I'm probably going to bring the head in for a flatness check and have them clean it, but I'm not sure what to do with the block, it's caked on. I suppose a lot of razor blade and stone time is in order. I'm not sure I need to do anything beyond replacing the HG. Unless there's massive damage to one of the pistons (#4 if anything no doubt) that I can't see from the top (which I suppose it quite possible) than I'm not sure what else could of been wrong. Maybe it was just this gasket's time.
Left to right, #4 and #3.
Left to right #2 and #1.
Bottom of head.
The next five photos are pretty obvious, all take from passenger side so far left is #4, right is #1.
Head gasket damage between 3&4
Slight damage between 3&2, you can tell since #3 isn't completely round anymore.
Damage between 2&1. It's hard to see, but it's similar to the damage between 3&4. This photo also shows my grievance with the head gasket. The hole in the block is tear drop shaped, where as the hole in the gasket is round. You can see how the tear drop shaped hole blasted the head gasket apart here. I hate to think about how much of this has come loose and circulated around my cooling system. WTF?
So it looks like between 1&2 and 3&4 the HG blew. You can see in the pictures of the gasket that it's nice and damaged. 1,2 and 3 pistons look the same, fairly black, while #4 is a little cleaner. It was full of water though from the car being tilted up, I had just soaked it up and wiped the piston clean before taking these pictures. How do you guys clean all the HG gunk off the block? I'm probably going to bring the head in for a flatness check and have them clean it, but I'm not sure what to do with the block, it's caked on. I suppose a lot of razor blade and stone time is in order. I'm not sure I need to do anything beyond replacing the HG. Unless there's massive damage to one of the pistons (#4 if anything no doubt) that I can't see from the top (which I suppose it quite possible) than I'm not sure what else could of been wrong. Maybe it was just this gasket's time.
#30
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (16)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: where most people are Utarded
Posts: 1,296
Total Cats: 0
Curly, let me know if you want this HG, it's a Felpro 9691 PT. New in the plastic, $35 shipped and it's yours, compared to $48.99 http://shop.oreillyauto.com/productd...tNumber=9691PT And let me know if you have any interest in this tested and cleaned complete head I have in the garage.
#35
well i was under the impression all metal was oe, if it isnt you have to ask yourself if glorified rienforced cardbaord is enough for your motor. It isnt for mine, the strenght and uniform expansion/compression of a mls hg, or mls gasket of anykind is preferable in all aplications where you aren't holding back oil or water, under extreme laods and temperatures. I have often read that markp used to exclaim that our mls hg's would be good up to 500 hp no problem. I've nver regreted taking his advice in the past so why stop now.
#38
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago. (The less-murder part.)
Posts: 33,040
Total Cats: 6,607
For those who are married to the idea that OEM is best, this presents a constant quandry for 1.6 owners. To install what was used originally, or to take Mazda's cue and accept the superiority of an MLS gasket...
#39
Cpt. Slow
Thread Starter
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,203
Total Cats: 1,138
Thank you Joe, your quandary answered all my questions
What does MLS stand for anyways, multi layered steel? It would certainly be nice to not have to deal with the gunk anymore. Not that I plan on taking it apart again. But the consensus is go to steel, right? Any one recommend one? I was wrong about the price, FM's is F'ing $115, where as Boundry's is a Cometic gasket for $93.
railz, although this was an OEM gasket, this was not the factory gasket. Spun bearing at 60,000 resulted my dad and I rebuilding the engine, 10 miles later we had to take it apart due to a mistake on his part while assembling it, then a few years later my long nose crank pulley backed out and I had to tear it apart to replace that, and ended up doing rings and hg anyways, and that hg is (was) this one. It's now at 121,000. That 60,000 is just a guess though, it was years ago.
What does MLS stand for anyways, multi layered steel? It would certainly be nice to not have to deal with the gunk anymore. Not that I plan on taking it apart again. But the consensus is go to steel, right? Any one recommend one? I was wrong about the price, FM's is F'ing $115, where as Boundry's is a Cometic gasket for $93.
railz, although this was an OEM gasket, this was not the factory gasket. Spun bearing at 60,000 resulted my dad and I rebuilding the engine, 10 miles later we had to take it apart due to a mistake on his part while assembling it, then a few years later my long nose crank pulley backed out and I had to tear it apart to replace that, and ended up doing rings and hg anyways, and that hg is (was) this one. It's now at 121,000. That 60,000 is just a guess though, it was years ago.
#40
I'm not going to argue that an MLS gasket is not superior to a composite gasket in its ability to hold a greater amount of power, however, I feel the need to point out a few things.
1. Both block and head surfaces need to be EXTREMELY clean to ensure a proper seal. I'm not saying that there havn't been cases of guys just slapping them on and never having an issue, but there is a very good chance of getting oil/water leaking by and mixing due to small imperfections in the finish on the head and/or block. If you don't believe me, head over to dsmtuners and ask around.
2. I look at headgaskets as my motor's fuse. How long does it honestly take to change one out? I'd rather pop a HG than bend a rod.
I guess I just don't see the point in spending twice as much money when a composite gasket is perfectly adequate. FWIW I've personally run 22psi on a 4g63 with a composite gasket without issues.
1. Both block and head surfaces need to be EXTREMELY clean to ensure a proper seal. I'm not saying that there havn't been cases of guys just slapping them on and never having an issue, but there is a very good chance of getting oil/water leaking by and mixing due to small imperfections in the finish on the head and/or block. If you don't believe me, head over to dsmtuners and ask around.
2. I look at headgaskets as my motor's fuse. How long does it honestly take to change one out? I'd rather pop a HG than bend a rod.
I guess I just don't see the point in spending twice as much money when a composite gasket is perfectly adequate. FWIW I've personally run 22psi on a 4g63 with a composite gasket without issues.