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Old 03-17-2013, 02:37 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by viperormiata View Post
So no turbo for this motor? Seems like a lot of work for something that can be spanked by a miata with a Greddy kit.

Edit: What is the appeal of revving to 10k? I don't see how waiting an extra 3k to reach peak power is a good thing.

Edit: I get the appeal of having a super reliable track motor. Just curious about the choice of motor. Cost vs. power output. Seems like v-band turbo kit would be more economical, and have much more torque.

Edit: Can't wait to see it done, though.
Have you ever driven a K series car? Seriously, i'd take a 240whp k series miata over a 300whp turbo BP car any day.

Agreed on geometry, that was something that kind of irked me with the few s2000 swaps ive seen on this forum.
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Old 03-17-2013, 02:38 PM   #22
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250hp NA is not appealing?

Or a bolt on 2.4L motor isnt appealing?
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:20 PM   #23
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If so, you are welcome to try and report your results from direct personal experience.
Yeah, I poorly worded that. My sarcasm isn't translating well this morning.

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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
So you would rather reach power at 4000rpm?? You are welcome to build and drive whatever you want. There are other car enthusiasts that actually enjoy a super efficient, simple and light weight N/A motor that revs like a bike.
I figure making power sooner, in a more useful part of the band, would be more important. But I do see the appeal for a purely track driven car. Simplicity seems to be the upcoming trend around here.

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As has been detailed many times on this forum, if you're a skilled enough driver, it cost near LSx swap money to build a rock solid turbo track Miata. If these guys can pioneer a sub $5K (less engine) K series swap, I'll build one.
If this is successful I can see it catching on, assuming the prices for hybrids drop. Still around 5-6 grand to build a K24 (according to google)

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Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
My concern is the same as Andrew's: steering geometry. I'm not willing to sacrifice that for the power. I have an EFR 6258 sitting on the shelf waiting to bolt onto a 1.9L BP and I think that will be the best solution for 270-400whp range for a full race car.
The recent F series builds seem to run into that issue (minus Owen WIlliams. You and Andrew are the trailblazers here. I look forward to seeing what you guys do.

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Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Have you ever driven a K series car? Seriously, i'd take a 240whp k series miata over a 300whp turbo BP car any day.

Agreed on geometry, that was something that kind of irked me with the few s2000 swaps ive seen on this forum.
Yes. N/A and 500+hp turbo. N/A was...boring. It's a lot of revving for nothing. Around a track, though, the N/A is the obvious.

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250hp NA is not appealing?

Or a bolt on 2.4L motor isnt appealing?
250hp/190trq N/A is not really appealing. A 230whp turbo miata be faster due to making power sooner and gobs more torque. Miata would break down on the track first, though. lol.

tl;dr - I drive on the street, so I am stupid. apples/oranges
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:32 PM   #24
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I think its hilarious that you guys think a Hybrid K20/K24 is a reliable motor, especially when reved to 10k.

The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.


Just like the old H22, which was a fabulous engine, the F20C/F22C have metal composite cylinder lines. These are lighter, and create less friction than the iron liners found in other engines (like the K series). But, because you cannot bore them, and because Honda kids tear through engines like hot cakes, this is seen as a bad thing.
With accords and preludes, you even see people using the F22A/B bottom end from the standard accord to replace the bottom ends of their H22s, because they want to be able to bore it, regardless of the fact that it has a worse rod/stroke ratio and doesnt have as good of an oiling system.
Then, there is EMS. If you cant slap a Hondata on it, it doesnt get used. Half of the S2000s have to be run on a standalone because the Hondata K-Pro doesnt work on them. If you understood how EMS works, this wouldnt be a problem, but if you need a plug n' play solution, then its a real problem. Honda guys are so spoiled by EMS being so cheap and easy that any barricades lead to the mentality of "**** that engine", in this case, **** the F22C.


The K20 is older than the F20/F22. It is a dual purpose engines, designed for economy and making enough power to compete with the GTI and other such boy racer cars. Which is why it has VVT in addition to having VTEC on both cams.

The F20C is a purely performance oriented engine, it has a higher Bore/Stroke ratio. It has a better Rod/Stroke ratio. It has a better oiling system. The head is more simple/reliable because it doesnt have VVT.
The head flows better:


So of course it makes more power and revs higher.

and there are plenty of legitimate race parts, just like the K20 (except the K20 parts are mostly designed for going in a straight line for a few seconds):



Attached Thumbnails
K series Miata swap-b16vsrsxvsf20c1.jpg   K series Miata swap-f20c-drysamp_1224_detail.jpg   K series Miata swap-spock_illogical_zpsd280145f.jpg  

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Old 03-17-2013, 03:40 PM   #25
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I like this. I don't race so I am thinking street applications. I like having options, so an extra motor choice is always a good option if cost doesn't get too far out of control.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:02 PM   #26
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13b, k series...lets just rev the **** out of everything.
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Old 03-17-2013, 04:15 PM   #27
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Very interesting! But this motor swap might increase Miata theft rate haha
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
The F20C and F22C were the best production 4 cylinders honda ever made and they fit in a miata without adapting to a different transmission. I cannot begin to understand what would possess someone to go through all this trouble when there is a easier and better option in plain view.
The F-series never got the aftermarket support of the K-series so despite being a better engine initially, the opposite is true when you get to building the engine.

Funny you brought up the H22 because the same exact was true of that vs. the B-series. H22 was the better engine out of the box but because of the limited market it was pretty much ignored by the aftermarket.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:51 PM   #29
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I'd hit it. I really like the K series. Its not legal in my class. But if I was building a fun street miata and wanted to swap something, it would be a tough choice between this and the ecotec and would really come down to which one required less steering rack moving.
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:55 PM   #30
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How come no one ever fabs new oil pans to clear the steering rack. Or why not go dry sump in this situation. Im pretty sure there are kits and you can probably piece one together.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:02 PM   #31
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How come no one ever fabs new oil pans to clear the steering rack. Or why not go dry sump in this situation. Im pretty sure there are kits and you can probably piece one together.
Its like $600 for a pan, another $1300 for a pump, few more hundred for a tank, likely $300ish in hoses... And thats if you can do all the hose making routing yourself.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:09 PM   #32
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How come no one ever fabs new oil pans to clear the steering rack. Or why not go dry sump in this situation. Im pretty sure there are kits and you can probably piece one together.
Both of those options are not cheap, particularly the dry sump. Even if you do these mods, that does not mean you will get away without having to modifying the subframe.

Edit: Leafy beat me to it.
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:12 PM   #33
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can a miata trans even shift at 10k rpm?
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:25 PM   #34
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Both of those options are not cheap, particularly the dry sump. Even if you do these mods, that does not mean you will get away without having to modifying the subframe.

Edit: Leafy beat me to it.
Actually, I priced it out with zero effort and its a lot cheaper than I thought it would be. I was figuring like at least 1500 for the pan and 3k for the pump, but after a quick search its really much more affordable than I thought it was.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:25 PM   #35
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Hi Emilio. I am really glad to hear 949 Racing is putting this together. I really love the VTech of Honda motors and wish my Miata had this VTech. Please let me know soonest available price and time for delivery.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:37 PM   #36
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Hi Emilio. I am really glad to hear 949 Racing is putting this together. I really love the VTech of Honda motors and wish my Miata had this VTech. Please let me know soonest available price and time for delivery.
lmao
you serious?
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:39 PM   #37
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Hi Emilio. I am really glad to hear 949 Racing is putting this together. I really love the VTech of Honda moto thers and wish my Miata had this VTech. Pleas let me know soonest available price and time for delivery
. Complete PnP kits shipping Monday. $2500 including 250whp motor.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:40 PM   #38
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lmao
you serious?
I'm fairly certain, no, he is not serious.
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:44 PM   #39
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Hi everyone. I made the thread on k20a.org, and had the adapter plate made. It's Austin's car.

Lets clarify a couple things about K24s to the Miata community. I have a STOCK K24A2 (2006 TSX motor) in my road race Integra. Only mods are RSX oil pump and some stage 1 cams and dual valvesprings. Rev limit is 8200 RPM. NOT 10K.

My car makes 247whp, 192wtq. There is a reason people have started swapping K24s into S2000s. VTC is a big one, which f20c and f22c does not have. If you do not understand what this is, watch this:


300whp all motor goes on all day on k20a.org with nothing more than a ported head, some cams, high compression pistons, and the necessary bolt ons that can flow the power.

We have some tricks up our sleeves with the steering rack, and yes we will eventually have a full tubular subframe done, the chopped stock subframe is just for the first one
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #40
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. Complete PnP kits shipping Monday. $2500 including 250whp motor.
lol
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