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Old 03-21-2013, 11:36 AM   #121
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I can tell everyone this much. In order to do this swap, you will need:

Adapter plate
Flywheel
custom crossmember with mounts
header
wiring harness (or DIY it)

Then you will need:
A motor
S2000 manifold
Kpro (price just dropped to $700)
A fuel setup

Then you may need other bits depending on what you want to do with the car, such as an upgraded clutch, oil pan baffle, upgraded radiator (although stock will work). Just depends how serious you want to get with it.

So going to be cheap? Not by some people's standards. Going to be cheaper than a V8 swap? Yes, probably by half. Going to be cheaper than a reliable track-oriented turbo setup? I would imagine so. (I've never built a turbo Miata setup though).

That's why we finally decided to make this happen. Its a great option to add a lot of reliable power for a fair cost (whatever that is, lol).
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:39 AM   #122
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That sounds fair. My guess is 10k.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:41 AM   #123
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Looking forward to seeing the exhaust on the "wrong" side for a Miata....will cause my brain to hurt after looking in Miata engine bays for the past 15+ years
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:44 AM   #124
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That sounds fair. My guess is 10k.
That's a safe bet, and similar to a good FF Honda K swap.

If you are resourceful I bet it could get done for closer to 7-8k depending on a lot of factors and part choices.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:41 PM   #125
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Yes, I 100% agree that everyone has a different idea of affordable.
It will be affordable as compared to other options for this power with road racing reliability. Let us get the car running first, because I don't have a good answer to this question.
Ill be first in line. I could use a winter project.

Can't wait to see this out at gingerman. Think it will it be ready for may wangfest?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:43 PM   #126
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Looking forward to seeing the exhaust on the "wrong" side for a Miata....will cause my brain to hurt after looking in Miata engine bays for the past 15+ years
Ever looked at an NC in the last 7 years?
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:25 PM   #127
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Ill be first in line. I could use a winter project.

Can't wait to see this out at gingerman. Think it will it be ready for may wangfest?
Yeah, thats the plan. Memorial Day Wangfest is our goal, but we hope to take if out at least once before.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:35 PM   #128
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Austin, I can't believe you're using a 10AE chassis for this swap. HOW DARE YOU RUIN SUCH A FANTASTIC EXAMPLE OF A STOCK MIATA!!!!1!!ONE!

As I told you before, I'm anxious to see you guys build this. Especially if you guys can get it all sorted to a full retail swap-kit.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #129
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Austin, I can't believe you're using a 10AE chassis for this swap. HOW DARE YOU RUIN SUCH A FANTASTIC EXAMPLE OF A STOCK MIATA!!!!1!!ONE!
lol, Read the caption under the first picture.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:11 PM   #130
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K swapping a car isn't exactly ruining it... Plus this chassis has seen better days, great candidate to swap. We are doing this car a favor.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:16 PM   #131
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lol I don't think you get the joke about m.net'ers
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:18 PM   #132
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lol I don't think you get the joke about m.net'ers
Ahhhh. Now I do. Sounds like the Type R owners of the Honda world
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #133
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burn all of the BRGs and 93LEs.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:43 PM   #134
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Will the K-series swap come with Nardi wood controls for the driver? Brushed aluminium door sills? Clearwater speakers?

Thank you.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:11 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
I can tell everyone this much. In order to do this swap, you will need:

Adapter plate
Flywheel
custom crossmember with mounts
header
wiring harness (or DIY it)

Then you will need:
A motor
S2000 manifold
Kpro (price just dropped to $700)
A fuel setup
Can someone smarter than I am tell me how this is going to work? Will the engine harness alone be controlled by the K-Pro ? Is there potential to use MS3 to control this thing, or would that be a huge pita? The EMS and wiring part of this swap is the only part that really makes me cringe.

Also in regards to the fuel setup, is the stock return style system not going to work? Or do you need to wire up something custom that the K-pro will control?

I just realized theses questions will undoubtedly be answered in your build thread, so I'll try to be more patient.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:19 PM   #136
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K-Pro is a daughter board that goes inside the K series ECU. So you will need the ECU and some kind of harness (Id probably just make one), and you will have to do the ECU modifications to allow the installation of the K-Pro. I think most people get it done at Hondata.

Also, I think you will need an immobilizer and the VIN number associated with it so that you can reprogram the ECU to match the immobilizer. Or maybe you can disable the immobilizer all together. Not really sure.

I think MS3 would work really well for this. They just have VVT on the intake cam. Plus, everything is there to do speed-density with OEM parts, since the K series were still speed density at one point (and I think they mainatined a map sensor even after they went mass airflow).
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:03 PM   #137
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good questions, but neither of those options meet our goals.

S2000 is going to be 600 lbs. heavier at race weight, and a clean Miata is about 25% of the cost of a clean S. Miata is going to be a lot cheaper and faster for a K swap. Not to mention the high cost of parts/consumables of the S vs. an NA or NB.

As far as the NC, same problem. Lot higher cost for the car, plus turbo, which is something we are not interested in for road racing at this time.

We've all heard "cheap, fast, reliable, pick two." Well this is our best attempt to pick all three.

2200 lb. with driver, and 230 whp, 190 wtq with 100% OEM Honda engine/reliablility. Thats not going to happen with an S or NC, especially at the price point we are going for.
Game on then!
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:34 PM   #138
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Kpro can disable the immobilizer so you don't have to worry about that. I still think it would be easier to use ms3 and adapt the engine harness rather than have to adapt the harness from the ecu and use Kpro. But maybe there is something I'm missing. The biggest advantage I see about Kpro is that you can fake obd2 readiness codes.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:36 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Can someone smarter than I am tell me how this is going to work? Will the engine harness alone be controlled by the K-Pro ? Is there potential to use MS3 to control this thing, or would that be a huge pita? The EMS and wiring part of this swap is the only part that really makes me cringe.

Also in regards to the fuel setup, is the stock return style system not going to work? Or do you need to wire up something custom that the K-pro will control?

I just realized theses questions will undoubtedly be answered in your build thread, so I'll try to be more patient.
For fuel, yes you will need a fuel pressure regulator and some lines. Older Honda chassis are like Miatas with the return fuel system, but the K uses a returnless system. Like an EG, EK, DC swap, you convert the car to returnless. You just need a $150 regulator, some AN lines, and a bigger fuel pump most likely. For our first swap we are using the stock S2000 fual rail and injectors.

For the ECU, yes, a Kpro’d ECU disables the immobilizer, and there is no need to obtain a VIN# to do so. We talked about using MS for this, but that’s not going to be possible for a few reasons. The whole car will run on a Kpro ECU.

FTB – the K has VVT (variable valve timing) on both intake and exhaust cams, but it has VTC only on the intake cam. This allows for continuous VTC cam angle adjustment to optimize power/torque at any point in the power band. It used oil pressure to either advance or retard timing by 25 degrees in either direction. Until VTC existed, tuners were limited to one set cam angle for the entire powerband, such as other DOHC VTEC B series and F series engines. A K engine tuner can set the intake cam advance at any angle at any place on the MAP.

I don’t believe MS is able to control VTC, which is one reason why a K series EMS must be used.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:45 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicdc2 View Post
..FTB – the K has VVT (variable valve timing) on both intake and exhaust cams, but it has VTC only on the intake cam. This allows for continuous VTC cam angle adjustment to optimize power/torque at any point in the power band. It used oil pressure to either advance or retard timing by 25 degrees in either direction. Until VTC existed, tuners were limited to one set cam angle for the entire powerband, such as other DOHC VTEC B series and F series engines. A K engine tuner can set the intake cam advance at any angle at any place on the MAP.

I don’t believe MS is able to control VTC, which is one reason why a K series EMS must be used.
Assuming VTC is just an on/off MAP/RPM table MS3 should do it. The VICS for the 99-00 Miata intake manifold is also just an RPM switch we run off a 1D table but there are extra 2D tables. I assume it's just a simple grounding/5V circuit and not PWM or PID. VVT on two cams also no problem. If we build a K5 it will be with an MS3pro. If VTC is PID then it might be an issues because I think the MS3pro can only run two cam PID's, not three.
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