KL-DE powered sand-rail
 

Well I'm at it again with another neck-deep project. I, impulsively, bought a sand-rail on a Michigan trip. It looked like an RC car and the kid in me couldn't say no. It -had- a Ford EXP (Escort) front wheel drive drivetrain mounted in the rear of the chassis to make it a mid-engine buggy. Due to it's lack of power, I decided to swap out the 1.6L i4 for a B6 or BP but mid build I figured hell, why not a v6? It just happened that the body shop down the road had a running 626 for $300 with bent frame rails so I nabbed it. The engine has since been removed, cleaned, rewired, and I'm moding the oil pan to relocate the sump. I used a B6 oil pickup tube, shortened the windage tray, and fabing the sump to be welded to the v6 oil pan. A new subframe has been built and bolted into the chassis. It was an 80s Berrien Sandtoy from what I've been told.

I figured I'd show you guys how the pan was done incase someone was pondering a KL-DE or ZE into a Miata. (Pics to come)

Here's pics of the rail. And ofcorse it's street legal. 1/4mi calculator says 175hp@1000lb = 10.4sec. :fawk: Might need tractor weights in front. :giggle:

More to come...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1277478990

That is very cool. Only thing I would do is change the front wheels to something wider so it can grip around turns better.
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Im hoping you meant to say that wider tires would allow for a softer compound tire to last longer, not that the actual width of the tire would improve traction...



But anyway,
very cool project. Ive always wanted to build one with a VW powerplant. I loved my Formula Vee racing days, and it would be cool to build a bloated, 2 seater, street legal formula vee, with a badass engine of course... probably turbo...

It's like you bought a 10/10th scale Associated RC10.

How much you pay for that thing if you don't mind me asking.

Wider wheels, wider tires, better traction. Who cares about how long they last? That isn't exactly a daily driver.
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Wider tires of the same tire compound dont offer any more traction, force and friction are independent of surface area. although their may be improvements in handling due to stronger sidewalls and keeping more contact with uneven surfaces.

Thats only really true with non-deformable surfaces. That thing looks like a blast. I'm thinking about useing a KL-ZE in an atom replica i'm designing.

I'm torn between a twin turbo KLZE swap and a naturally aspirated small block with prototype high rpm valvetrain gear on the cheap. I like boost but feel V8 swaps are well documented so that'd be easier and probably less expensive. Hmmmmm.

From what I've seen with local buggy guys, kl motors are quite popular in these things. A machinist I know started with a super beetle 1.6 and ended up with a klde on his road legal buggy and it's FAST.

I bet that thing is a blast to drive.

In for video, actually video or die!

It's well on it's way. I got the harness and ecu today and bolted on the custom pan I fab'd. It won't be done overnight but give me a week or two and it'll be running.

Tim... Boost the KL man. Don't slop a fat pig of a v8 into anything. Small and efficient is the way to go. KL's have been built to 1000hp. How you been btw?

I paid less then I sold my Miata for how about that? lol

Handling is surprisingly good considering those are spare tires up front. It'll whip around corners like a go-kart with no body roll. Much better then I expected really. The rest of the shop insists I do an autocross with it. :)

Since the body is just sheet metal I should paint up an extra set of RC-10 look-alike body panels for it. haha

Love the KL. And they do very well with boost- transmission not so well. I know of one mx3 (rebel on mx6.com) that was running 15psi holset on a KL for 400whp. Typical fwd issues- no traction, and if it had traction it was tearing up the trans. 1000lbs should be much easier on the trans when you boost. :D

And the sound. mmmm.

That's another reason the KL was picked over a B6 or BP. ;) I have 2 Suzuki GSX-R mufflers for it too. I ran one of those mufflers on the old 1.6L Ford engine before I pulled it and it was quieter then I thought it would be. A KL through 2 of them will sound sweet.

The engine goes in tonight. On the mounts anyways. I'll wire up the starting and charging systems but engine management wiring will be another day.

I'll get more pics.

If it is meant for sand, skinny front tires are better. They are supposed to dig in the sand. Wide tires float on top, and offer little traction. So in a sense, sand front tires are more like rudders.

This is going to be so badass.

Ok here's some pics.

The gastank was moved down, forward, then tipped at an angle to allow room for a fuel pump to be mounted under it and also to make room for the front trans mount. The battery was relocated from behind the passengers seat to the front center of the chassis. The Honda Civic sized battery and an angle iron frame fit perfectly between the tubes. :) The ECU, relays, etc. will be mounted in a box in the old battery location. This keeps wiring to a minimum. Only a constant power, ignition, and start signal will run to the box. A few more wires will run out of it for sensors and what-not but that's alot less then a full harness had I mounted the ECU in front.

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Here I was test fitting the engine. That engine mount ended up being cut off due to a mis-measurement. When the engine was in the 626, I measured between the strut towers and then marked the center on the engine's intake manifold. Apperently the accident jacked the car so hard the engine was at least 2" off center. I'll make another later once I know center. The frame tube at the bottom of the first pic has been removed and the engine moved back another inch to make room needed for the front trans mount and to give the alternator bracket some clearance.


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Here's the custom oil pan. The engine had to be moved left which made that notch almost not needed. It holds 7qt now and has baffles in it to keep oil near the pickup tube. Also shown is the quick mod I made to the steering wheel release. I put in a roll pin and a spring to take the looseness out of the steering wheel. Put the wheel in place then push down till it clicks. Worked great! The lower control arms are from the 626 and installed reversed. Left side on the right and visa-versa. This was done to keep one of it's mounts closer to the bulk of the sub-frame where it attaches to the main chassis. I think it's stronger this way then to have the mount way at the rear. The front bushing is Mazda with the old brackets cut off and a 1/4" thick strap welded around it. 2 bolts will hold it to the subframe through round thick-walled tubing welded into the subframe. I'll show more detailed pics of that later. Mounting it this way gives me a little bit of caster adjustment by shimming the front of the a-arm up or down. I doubt I'll need it but the a-arm should swing inline with the strut which does have a slight caster angle to it.

EDIT - Now that I think about it, it won't effect the caster at all.

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Sorry Z, I forgot I wanted to respond to that post. The Atom is a sweet car. The KL is a sweet engine. It takes well to power mods. Check any MX-6 or MX-3 forums. That engine has been built to levels higher then any trans you'll find. 800-1000hp levels. 9000rpm anyone? Yes and on the stock crank! It's very well made and it's all-aluminum block keeps it light. I think it weighs about the same as a B6/BP or not far from it. Rods, pistons, and boost will get you to 400hp easy and you can't argue with the exhaust note from this engine. :bowdown:
I'd like to note, the intake mounting surface, at the head, flows straight down. The mounting surface is flat not like a Chevy V8. In other words, a single plate of aluminum can lay over both heads. This make it VERY easy to make a custom intake, ITB, or supercharger setup.

Check out this site for pics of it's internals. 4-bolt "mains" woot woot. http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/KL.htm

Don't forget to read this! http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/S...E%20920677.htm

And check out this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E0Id...ayer_embedded#!


Here's what I mean about the intake ports.

http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/i...MazdaV6-17.jpg
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l8...M0459_0190.jpg

I finally have the engine positioned where I want it. The front mount is welded on and I have bushings to make the new right-side mount that was cut off. I'm also modifying the strut mount to move the strut out a touch. The tube going upward from the mount will be replaced with one that runs more horizontal before it bends down to the mount. This allows me the room to fit both mufflers at matched heights. I will now be able to run the dual GSX-R exhaust. The front bank fires out the right muffler and the rear bank out the left. I don't think I can manage equal lenght pipes but I'll try. I'm dying to hear what it'll sound like. :)

Yesterday I traced the engine/ECU harness and located everything needed to run the engine. I might have it fired up later today if I can find a fuel pump laying around.

Does anyone know of an OEM pump that can be used outside the tank with hoses?

I've run one outside of a car as a water pump but my thoughts were that outside of a fuel tank the pump would be at a high risk of rusting in an auto app. The begi aux pump for example has a plastic(?) coating and oem is just anodized.

I can always paint it. :)

I'm still searching for a cheap inline pump for testing but in the end it'll be in the tank. The '88ish BMW 325i uses one. Not sure how well it'll work though.

The shifter is finished... finally. The one that was in it was a joke. I used the shift lever and socket from a Protege and cut it off the Protege brackets and made my own. It's now a 'universal' bolt-on shifter. The throw seems a touch long but I'll have to put some drive time on it and see how I like it. Easy enough to fix later.

I'll record a video of it's first time starting. I hope all goes well. :noes:

Thanks. I think I'm underestimating it. 0-60 just calculated out at 3.09sec :owned:

Assuming traction of course lol. On a 9K rpm KL, you'd have a lot of second gear left too! :skid: (626 trans right?)

For added high-speed stupidity you could add aero-friendly bumper (custom, CRX, Miata) fenders, sideskirts & even roof or undertray for highway supercar/bike kills...

Less than 3 pounds per WHP = Fast as F#CK!

Last Monday I passed a similar vehicle on the way to the cottage the driver seemed to like my seadoo. He promptly roared up beside me pointed at it, gave me a thumbs up and zipped away, very quickly. His sounded like a v8 :drool: but I couldn't really see and it was a rear transverse mount so it would likely be a caddy v8 if it was.

I've been working on a rear/mid engine kit car design with a buddy for years and we've never decided on a power plant, maybe some vids (and detailed pics) would sway things?

The donor 626 had an automatic. I bought a junkyard manual from the Probe GT because it offered a lower final drive ratio of 4.388. First is 3.307. 14.5:1 total with 160 at the crank puts 2320 on the tires. I think it'll hook up fine since there's nothing much to resist acceleration. I have a set of 295/50/15s for the rear also. They stick.
I don't want high speeds. If it'll do 75mph I'll be happy. I do want gut wrenching hill climbing torque though. :)

The KL has incredible potential for making -serious- horsepower. Aluminum block but a 2-piece design with 4-bolt 'mains'. Light and powerfull that's for sure. I'll get vids once it's up and running. I'd love to do an boosted KL based Atom some day. -drool-

Engine runs! First shot! woot woot -rejoyce-

I have to finish the rear a-arms (almost complete), strut mounts, exhaust, button up the wiring, correctly mount the fuel pump, and put the seats back in and it'll be good to drive.

Vehicle wiring completed. Started on exhaust. Radiator is mocked up but I still have to wire in the relays. I measured a Miata radiator and it'll fit and mount better then what I have in there now. Maybe a nice aluminum aftermarket Miata radiator would work ok.

Anyone have a Miata radiator forsale?

In for wheelie videos! :bigtu:

In for a simple strong RWD KLDE trans solution that will fit in a miata. I know I won't get it here but whatever. :)

He installed it. It's the fwd trans, driving the rear wheels and pushing 1,000 lbs. less. :D

Yeah I know, it's a sand rail. I want one in my miata and want someone smart to figure it out for me.

Ahhh- you want a longitudinal front engine rwd transmission solution.

Use a vitara 2.5 and 2wd trans and live with truck gears? Wasn't there a limited run ice racing miata that had a kl or was it some 3L v6 (not to mention awd)?

I too would like this. If mazda had put a klze or dare I say it a tuned up klze in the miata it would have certainly drawn the people who buy Porsche's for their performance.

(...now back to our regularly scheduled thread...)

I'm ready for vids, especially exh growl!

Depends on if it would be strong enough for a bunch of power. If you run one of the typical V8 conversion rear end setups you could probably find a rear end ratio that would work with the truck trans gears as long as the trans won't explode with a couple turbos worth of boost on there.

Yahhh back to laser and some fuking sweet music please.

I haven't done too much to it yesterday or today. Just trying to get wiring out of my way and the rear suspension tacked in straight. I wish I had some sort of square frame rack to bolt this too. All I can go off is the frame rails which I'm only assuming to be straight.

Tim, I heard the RX7 trans has been mated to a K series in the past. I'm pretty sure it was with an adaptor plate. I -almost- grabbed an RX7 trans from the yard last week just to see how it would line up to the K. Adaptor plates aren't that hard to make and I'm in good with a shop that could jet one from aluminum if I made cad drawings of both the K, B, or 13b bell housings.

Here's some KL Miatas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toughTZ9PIw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocQ_R5MO7Vc&feature=fvw

The problem I have with adapters is how do you get a clutch to work? space out the flywheel the same amount as the adapter plate? Do you use a flywheel from teh engine or from the trans? Etc. it's probably simple. I made a cad layout of the BP and have the same info emailed to me somewhere on the KL, but the clutch issue I dunno about.

EDIT: he said in his video he uses an RX7 bellhousing & flywheel with the miata trans. Should be able to use the entire RX trans then. Sounds beautiful. I can't wait to hear yours!

Since we all seem to be like minded on the subject, some light reading:

KL MIATA BUILD 1

KL MIATA BUILD 1.1 (pics of kl to 13b adapter here)

KL MIATA BUILD 2

I'd like a way to still use my new 6 speed please, if there is to be an adapter made. I'm sure starter location forbids this though :td:.

He did use a flywheel spacer same thickness as the adapter. Personally I'd rather have a proper bell housing especially if one intended to really drive the car, one less mod to fail.

Inferno is right. A spacer was used. I'm not too keen on that idea. It would seem to me that the farther away the flywheel is from the rear bearing journal, the more accuratly aligned and balanced it would need to be. Your 'extending the lever' by moving the flywheel away from it but I've seen worse thing ideas hold. Like the brake disc I'm about to use as a rear wheel adaptor. :D

I finished another engine mount and started welding on the a-arm mounts. Once those are set in place I can finish the upper strut mounts, tie in the brakes, run exhaust, then it's test drive time. :D Once I'm satisfied it drives right I'll button things up like the ECU box and a new instrument cluster. The cluster in it now gets in the way of my leg. I'm going to mount a new one centered just below the windshield with the gauges in a horizontal row. It'll be about 4" tall and 14" wide. When I did the wiring harness I put in enough wires to cover things like the factory speed sensor for an electronic speedo, an alternator light, a check engine light (working and no CEL yet), and electronic oil pressure and temp gauges using the OEM Mazda sensors. As simple as this vehicle may seem, there's an aweful lot of wiring ran through the chassis but at least it's hidden away in the tubing.

I'm aiming to have this driving by thie end of this weekend.

Here's some pics of what's been happening.

1st is the shifter. It was from a Mazda Protege. I cut off the bottom pivot and welded it to a plate to make it easy to bolt to anything I want.It was turned 45deg to clear existing holes. It will be corrected later.

2nd is the motor mount on the front of the engine. It bolts to the stock Mazda engine bracket and uses poly inserts.

3rd is one of the 2 lower control arm mounts. It wraps under the subframe and uses the 626 control arms.

4th is my favorite. I used the rear rotor from the 626 to make an adaptor for the VW 5-bolt rear wheels. It's pretty darn straight considering I don't have a lathe or mill. I used an old front spindle/hub and clamped in the vise. Then I found a spacer to center a bolt through the axle hole and spun it with a cordless drill with a socket attachment. I used a pick to scribe an 8" circle on the rusty disc. I eyeballed each lug stud in line with the center of the hub and put a dot on my circle. I did this 5 times then drilled the disc and pounded in the lug studs from the old hub. I mounted the wheel backwards because it stuck out too far due to the offset. I'll have proper spacers made before this sees highway speeds. :D

And finally, the wheel attached to the hub.

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The more I see of this the more I think 'Im-a git me one-a doze'. In other words great work, very...resourceful.

Now if you could only tell me how to get the crumbling to pieces (yet corroded in) vss out of my brother's protege you would be my second favourite person today.

Is it the aluminum housing or plastic sensor? Is the trans still in the car?

Lower control arm mounts are welded in and the arms are bolted on. No other updates.

Here's the new air pedal. I'd call it a gas pedal but that's WRONG! lol It has a stopper so when your WOT it's not pulling against the stop on the throttle body and putting stress on the cable. It also has a back stop to make the range from closed to WOT adjustable. The pedal arm itself can be adjusted to change your foot position and the cable itself is adjustable to remove the slack both at the pedal assembly and at the throttle body. yeah custom \:D/

Can anyone guess what it's made from? :D

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Guess correctly and win this cookie!

http://infinitejestchallenge.files.w...hip_cookie.jpg

Started the strut plates tonight. It's going to take alot of measuring to get them in the right place. My main concern is camber since there's no camber adjustment. I'll weld them in as close to zero as I can then put cam bolts in the lower strut mounts for camber adjustment. The height of the mount will leave 1" of chassis ground clearance when the strut hits the bump stop. I've trimmed the bump stops so the mount doesn't have to be as high as if I left them stock.

Clutch slave cylinder?

Looks like a slave cylinder.

Nope. Here's a hint. It was designed to rotate back and forth.

Wheel spindle?

Door lock?
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E-brake?

Vids?

Nope

I don't have much to show yet. I could fire it up without an exhaust for you guys but it's in shambles at the moment so no dissin' :fawk:

its not the arm that attaches to the motor for the windshield wipers is it?

We have a winner! It's the mount that the wiper arm bolts to.

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Here's a few more pics. My phone doesn't shoot video apperently so that will have to wait until tomorrow.

The Miata fuel pump fit down the filler neck of the gas tank so I used it temporarily. Also shot of the lower control arm mounts. For the front mount I welded in 2 solid round tubes in the subframe rail so it wasn't crushed when tightened. I did the same thing where the subframe attaches to the main chassis. Heim links are used to hold the toe straight since the spindles used to steer the 626. Then my brake and clutch pedals. The original owner ran the lines under the frame. I moved them above the frame so they won't get damaged. It only has rear brakes so failure is not an option. I'd like to see if the 626 rear calipers/brackets would fit the front spindles. If so, I'll be able to hook up an e-brake.

EDIT - I finished the brake lines tonight. As soon as I get gas for the mig I'll be able to take it for a test drive.

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