My car wont start *Now 323 GTX Engine Swap!*
 

This is as a result of my bad hydrolock over the weekend before an autox event. TPS circuit shorted and MS opened my injectors and filled the engine up with fuel. It sat over night with fuel in the combustion chamber before I had a chance to clear it out. Was a spectacle at the autox event spewing tons of fuel out of the spark plug tubes.

Anyway, i've fixed the short. No more filling up with fuel. With the plugs out it spings freely and quickly and nothing sounds like its knocking around in there at all so there might be some hope for my engine yet. Tested my megasquirt on falcon's car the other day and it started it up no problem.

I've got spark and fuel verified by wet spark plugs and smoke coming out when I remove a plug. I swapped plugs for good measure with a known unfouled set.

The problem seems to be that I cant get my motor to crank fast enough to catch anymore. Could it be my starter is now dead? I recharged the battery, its showing 12.7 volts as it sits. I even jump it to our other car while i'm cranking it but it just doesn't spin fast enough. Maybe 160rpms tops according to tuner studio.

Thoughts? Could I actually have a bottom end problem afterall? Is my starter shitting the bed? Is it possible that the crank case is full of raw fuel now from leaking past the rings so that its locking the engine up that way? The oil looks suspiciously clean but not over full on the dip stick. I'm guessing its fairly diluted with fuel at this point.

Should I give up and buy a geo?

No.

How hard is it to turn the engine over by hand? Try a push start?

Starter, potentially.

I've always been told the three major things to look at are spark, fuel, and timing if an engine doesn't start. Your belt could have slipped quite a bit when it locked up. After that check compression.

I guess a compression test is the next big step. The guy who was driving the car when it locked tried to compression start it when the cylinders were full of fuel so i guess it is possible (though unlikely) the timing belt jumped teeth.

How could it jump teeth?

Starter turns the flywheel which is bolted to the crank. When the crank stops moving due to hydrostatic lock, the crank timing gear stops moving at the same time. I guess it is possible for the belt to have slipped but it seems unlikely IMO.

OOOPS I just noticed that the car was being driven at the point that it hydro-locked.

I would definitely check compression and crank/cam timing. I hope you didn't bend a rod. Keep us posted on what you find. hopefully it is something simple.

Yes you need to change the oil. It is cheap insurance!!

Could he have sheared the woodruff key? I'm trying to figure out the backwards order of forces that would of happened when it locked up, and I'm having issues thinking of what would experience the brunt of the impact. TDC and timing should be easy enough to figure out.

I talked to no less than 35 people about it at the event and ideas ranged from "you're definitely fucked" and "your engine is fine". The most common consensus is that all 4 cyls locking at the same time would have spread the force out enough that it would have just locked up the wheels (which it did) before anything was damaged. This is all speculation of course though.

Someone is coming over to help me push it up into my garage where i'm going to do some closer inspection and troubleshooting including changing the oil, checking timing and compression checking. My starter has been suspect for quite a while now so i'm considering finding one of those as well.

Edit: I hadn't even suspected the woodruff key yet. Thats a good idea.

Seems like the rods would bear the brunt of the force to stop it from spinning.

Bob

Yeah the cams would only follow the crank, they wouldn't put much force on it. Don't forget to get an NB starter to save a couple pounds.

I will be getting whatever is cheapest/freeest

I have an NA starter I think you can have. But usually the problem is not the starter. I have found even a battery has 12v still wont start your car well if it has other issues. The NA starters have a bigger kick to them with more torque than the NB starters as well I think.

Bob

I just drained my oil and it was a mess. It was absolutely full of fuel. Seemed like even more fuel than oil to be honest. It came out with a lot of force and splashed out of the can. I picked up something chunky and black off the floor but i'm not sure if it came out of the engine or was sitting in the top of my drain pan from when I drained the oil out of my blown 1.6 diff.

So my theory of the crank case being so full it resisted cranking must have been true. I need to go to the store for more oil before I find out for sure though.

I would run a compression test before you fire it up. If you bent a con rod, all hell could break loose if you fire it up. Just a thought.

Pretty sure the motor is toast. With the plugs out it takes 80% of my strength to turn it over. I've gotten out of shape since I built this, but not that bad! Probably trying to start it with a crank case full of fuel ruined stuff.

With the plugs out I can more or less easily turn my crank with a standard rachet. Then again I'm built like a greek god. Sorry to hear about your bad luck. Check piston heights to make sure they're all equal and still check timing.

Timing is fine. It honestly takes too much effort to even bother checking piston heights.

Thanks for your kind thoughts :makeout:

Start the tear down. If he gets off his ass, cueball1 should have a shitty 1.8 available soon.

I think I have a hook on a GTX short block from bbundy. It would just cost too much for me to upgrade to a 1.8 at this point. I'm a poor [wannabe] student :giggle:

I'm going to go out and waste $ on margaritas tonight!

Wut? Why is it more difficult to turn the crank with the plugs in???

Cause you should have compression fighting against you. Should be really easy with the plugs out, you're just fighting the piston ring friction and valve springs.

the surface area of the top of a 84mm piston is about 8.5 square inches. Assuming a 14psi atmospheric pressure, the pressure in the combustion chamber at 10:1 compression is 140 psi (which would measure as 126psi relative to ATM) which means that at the top of the stroke, you've got 126*8.5 = 1071 pounds of force pushing down on the single compressed piston. Fortunately, mechanical leverage means that you'll never see the full half-ton of force on the crank because there is simply no torque on the crankshaft at TDC. Now, for simplicities sake, Lets assume that at 90 degrees, compression is 2:1. You've still got 119 pounds of force on the compressing piston...but you wont see this force either, because when one piston is 90 degrees through the compression stroke, there is a second piston that is 90 degrees through the ignition/power stroke - so there are 2 pistons with 119 pounds of force on either side of the crank teeter-totter.

The force that you will push against is when you are moving between 90* BTDC and TDC. As you further compress the piston on the compression stroke, you increase force against it. You will also further decompress the piston on the ignition stroke, which will decrease the counter force, so you'll be fighting for the last 90 degrees.

Lets get simple again, and assume that at 45* BTDC, your 10:1 pistons are at 4:1 compression. You've got about 357 pounds of force on the piston. Your countering piston on the ignition stroke has 1.25:1 compression, or about 30 pounds of counterweight for a total of about 327 pounds. If we also assume that the force is being applied 1.5" from the centerline of the crankshaft (i don't know crankshaft dimensions very well) then you're fighting against 41 ft/lb of torque every time a compression piston sees 45* BTDC (twice per crankshaft rotation). This is the force your starter must overcome every time you start the car. Note that I'm not accounting for valvetrain torque. If you try to start your car without spark plugs, you'll find that it turns about like a hand-drill. There is no patterned laboring associated with the compressing of the pistons, it is rather an easy mono-tone spinning of the starter.

Gawd, i'm bored this morning

Oooh thank you. I wasn't thinking about the whole air compression bit.

Yay the new B6T shortblock is in! Along with a cheap headgasket. Thanks Bob!

Pics tomorrow! Someone should retitle this because i'm going to be documenting my build in here I think.

Engine came out today. This car is so easy to work on. My buddy came over to help me muscle it out and when we were done he said "thats it?!". Once we hooked up the hoist the engine was out 5 minutes later lol. Also, my garage is tiny but not as small as I thought. This couldn't have worked out much better. Pics!

Engine, turbo stuff, trans, driveshaft and all.
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Purdy. I'll take this opportunity with everything apart to bandsaw the head flange off the manifold and weld on a new one.
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Subtle differences that the GTX engine comes with. Dished out 7.8:1 pistons, a better mixing manifold design and this particular one has no big breather port on the oil filter side. Also has an oil cooler that supposedly plumbs into the heater core on the GTX according to Bob.
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Rear main leak much?
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Should have the Old motor apart tomorrow for carnage pics.

how long did it take to unbolt and take out?

Isn't that what all bellhousings are supposed to look like? :) Mine was like that too.

hour and a half of actual work.


This engine only has >10k on it and hasn't even been in for 2 years. The lower bell housing bolts were soaked in fresh oil. I also cleaned most of the schmutz out of the bell housing before I bolted it onto the motor. It had a felpro rear main so i'm not at all surprised that it look like this.

Head is off. No differences in piston height. The rings scream when you turn the block over as they scrape against the cylinder walls. The cams are very difficult to turn so I think the head is toast as well :(:(:(

I always preach cleanliness and organization when doing this type of work and here I am not following my own advice. My garage is a mess.
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Piston pics. I dont like seeing obvious detonation.
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Done stripping the old block. Now on to swapping parts over to the GTX block.

Mmm melted bubbly hot pistons. Dinner time!

Small update. I've got the new block all cleaned and painted. I went with silver so I could see oil leaks easier. I changed the cam seals in the head after I took all the journals off and inspected them for wear.

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Inbetween coats of paint I decided to clean up my engine bay. After pulling some of the wires loose from the body I decided that it would be easy to route them up under the fender for a mild wire tuck. By under the fender I do not mean behind the fender, just up along the top of the wheel well and most of it is tucked under the headlight now. Man did that all make a difference. FWIW windshield washer fluid makes a great engine bay detailer.

Before:
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After:
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Gonna go out and start on the driver side here in a bit after lunch.

To finish my engine I need to swap the short nose crank for my extra long nose crank. I've got everything I need but I'm waiting for plastigauge I ordered to come in to make sure that these bearings are going to do the job.

More done today.

Short nose crank out, new bearings in.
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New Long nose crank in.
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Cleaned the block deck. This was the hardest part of anything so far.
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Cleaned up the oil pump and put it on. I lost my FSM, what are the torque specs for the oil pump and water pump?
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More little this and thats done today. I'm working slow. I still haven't gotten my oil pickup gasket yet, should be here this weekend I think. When I dont have every last part I have a hard time getting anything done because that missing piece is always in the back of my mind saying, "well, i'm not there yet so you cant finish anyway!"

Anyway, I cleaned up the head a bit. Was much easier getting the old head gasket material off of it rather than off of the GTX block deck. Also check out the additional pics of detonation on the head. Still no idea why this happened. Cylinder 3 is the worst. I'm wondering if some cheap gas found its way into my car at some point. I'm not running an outrageous timing map.
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The head went back on the block. Its always a sad moment when this happens. Almost like i'll never see those pistons again. Well, I know i'll see them again someday...just not someday soon =P One last picture of them with the head studs in.
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And bye bye pistons.
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Still a lot to do but i'm hoping to have my car running again monday or tuesday. I'm also going to do a spacerless coolant re-route. More on that later.

Sounds like you should do a burial for your pistons. May they rest in piece

I see you've been busy too!!!

Front water neck fail. You're doing the spacerless reroute with the head mounted?

I havent been following, but this very interesting just in the last page. I'm assuming everything was assembled by your own hand? From the pan up?

Waterneck will be gone. Ya I didn't see any reason that I couldn't and I actually wanted the head mounted to see what the clearance would be like under the intake mani. At this point I might not be able to pull it off, Falcon has my drillbit and tap and is going to be gone for days at the knox mountain hill climb. Although I dont get my last needed gasket from finishline til wednesday it turns out so perhaps i'll get the drillbit and tap in time. I have to have this up and running by the 5th for an autox.

Mostly. I didn't re-ring the pistons so they stayed in the whole time. I replaced the main and rod bearings and swapped the short nose crank for a long nose I had laying around. Plastigauged it to make sure it was all within spec and its all good. So pretty much a pan up rebuild.


A question: Whats the thread size for the coolant port in the block? I'm going to use that for one of my turbo water lines. Going to run the other line to the mixing manifold. Ditching the throttle body coolant lines all together and the warmup valve thingy on the TB. Everything else about my reroute will be stock except the coolant will be returning to the radiator via the rear of the head vs the front. Pretty basic.

If you didn't live 6 hours away you could come borrow my drill and tap sets. I have a couple for both 3/8 NPT and 1/2 NPT, and all of the shanks have been turned down to fit into 1/2" chucks.

If you pop them in the mail i'll return them with some money in the package :) I think it would cost me 20+ to go buy another bit and tap at the hardware store, and even then I have to borrow a drill it will fit in.

Sizes needed? Don't just say "everything" cause that'll be heavy=expensive.

USPS small flat rate box is anything up to 70lbs. And it would probably be there in a day and a half.

Let me double check. Going to check brgracer's reroute thread real quick. Cant remember the thread pitch of the coolant sensor or what size heater outlet I need. I think just 3/8 would be fine.

Edit: confirmed, need the 3/8 NPT tap and the bit that goes with it. Do you happen to have a M12x1.5 tap for the sensor? A friend of mine locally probably has it but i'm not certain he has anything larger than 10mm.

Well let ME double check what I have. Brb.

Edit: Ok, I have 37/64 drill and the 3/8NPT tap to go with it, but only M12x1.25. My drill chart doesn't even show M12x1.5, only 1.25 and 1.75. I thought I did since I drilled and tapped my spacer for the sensor, but I must of left that out of my box when I quit, cause it doesn't seem to be there now...

Hmmm interesting. I'll check my buddy's shop and see if he has the 12x1.5.

Go ahead and send the rest of it! Doesn't have to be anything special, flat rate might not be the cheapest way. Any way you ship it it will be here overnight i'm pretty sure.

Engine is in but it smokes pretty bad when I roll into boost. :( :( :(

Try ditching the PCV system if you haven't already.

I just have a filter on the hot side and a GTX Valve on the cold side. I'm fearing the worst, its a lot more than just a little. Its a substantial amount of smoke and it wasn't doing this with my last engine.

Ditch the pcv, hook both ends to a catch can. Does that block have a port with a cap down near the oil filter?

And you didn't call me. We're over!
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I know i know, i'm just sitting down to write you a PM!

Anyway, I got called into work so I couldn't do any more troubleshooting (also my excuse for not calling you ;) but right before I took off for work I coudn't resist taking it for another spin around the block. No smoke this time, but it wasn't immediately obvious last time either, it took a little bit of driving it around before I noticed it.

Anyway, now I have a horrible leak between the mani and head so I have to get this bitch resurfaced for sure. I'm just affraid that its not resurfacable which will mean I have to weld on a new flange which means even more downtime. How are the exhaust mani gaskets suppose to go on? Does the flat side go toward the head or does the embossed side go toward the head? I might have installed it wrong.

Edit: No, this doesn't have the block port.

Embossed side out, facing the manifold.

Ok I got it right then. Thats what I thought.

Went for another drive this morning. Looks to be happening mostly under decel. Seems like vacuum pulls oil into the combustion chamber, then when i stab the throttle it puffs smoke like crazy. I dont see any smoke in my mirrors while i'm accelerating in boost although I cant pay much attention since this thing accelerates pretty quick at 14psi.

Other than the oil smoke and the leak at the manifold, its running as well if not better than ever.

Either blow turbo seals, or valve stem seals most likely.

I'm not sure which is more likely but i'm going to go pull a charge pipe and see whats up. If there isn't any oil in the charge pipe i'm going to assume valve stem seals. There is definitely oil between the head and manifold where its leaking.

More news. Charge pipes are clean, its not the turbo. Its the rings in number 3. The spark plug is covered in oil. It is blowing oil out of the breather filter on the driver side valve cover so i'm definitely pressurizing the crank case badly.

Damit that is the same thing that is happening to my GTX right now, same cylinder. Honistly I never saw that engine run I assumed it was good the cylider walls looked good and the tops of the pistons looked fine.

Bob

I just hope it isn't ringlands. If it were ringlands, the cylinder walls would be scored horribly wouldn't they?

No guarantees that it would.

Before I throw out my crazy idea...how long did this motor sit before you got it?

No idea. Probably many years in the back of bob's garage. I hope your crazy idea has something to do with getting rings unstuck from the piston after sitting a long time. I tried soaking the piston in ATF overnight but that hasn't helped :(