Oil Pressure Relief Valve Issue - Is There Any Fix?
11-18-2019, 11:18 PM
#21
I'm not sure who or when the inverted 'bob bundy' was applied, but it's pretty funny. When I was building my car I took a lot of inspiration from bbundy's posts.
There aren't really many more details to what I posted above. The oil pump needs to have the relief valve removed and blocked up so it doesn't leak. I just use an aluminium plug. The oil pressure relief valve most commonly used is the Peterson 09-0160 which has -10AN fittings. You need to weld a -10 bung or tap a fitting into the sump, but be careful where you place it so you can clear the subframe and try not to squirt oil onto the crank. Plumbing is simple... Oil filter output (use a sandwhich plate) -> relief valve -> oil cooler -> oil filter sandwich plate input. Return from relief valve to sump. You can also put the valve in the return line from the oil cooler too if you want less pressure drop, but it means the cooler is slightly less effective as it's cooling the return oil too so the output to the engine will be slightly hotter.
The Peterson valve flows a lot more oil, and doesn't chatter.. it also has much better oil pressure control and is easily adjustable. The theory is that the stock oil pressure valve gets either overcome with too much oil and backpressures into the gears blowing them apart, or alternatively, the stock valve can chatter and send pulses back down into the gears.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying not to run a Boundary pump, or a ATI damper. This works well with both, but I'm currently running a stock pump to 9k on track with a cut down oem damper. I have a boundary pump and supermiata damper on the shelf to go onto the engine next rebuild for safety.
There aren't really many more details to what I posted above. The oil pump needs to have the relief valve removed and blocked up so it doesn't leak. I just use an aluminium plug. The oil pressure relief valve most commonly used is the Peterson 09-0160 which has -10AN fittings. You need to weld a -10 bung or tap a fitting into the sump, but be careful where you place it so you can clear the subframe and try not to squirt oil onto the crank. Plumbing is simple... Oil filter output (use a sandwhich plate) -> relief valve -> oil cooler -> oil filter sandwich plate input. Return from relief valve to sump. You can also put the valve in the return line from the oil cooler too if you want less pressure drop, but it means the cooler is slightly less effective as it's cooling the return oil too so the output to the engine will be slightly hotter.
The Peterson valve flows a lot more oil, and doesn't chatter.. it also has much better oil pressure control and is easily adjustable. The theory is that the stock oil pressure valve gets either overcome with too much oil and backpressures into the gears blowing them apart, or alternatively, the stock valve can chatter and send pulses back down into the gears.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying not to run a Boundary pump, or a ATI damper. This works well with both, but I'm currently running a stock pump to 9k on track with a cut down oem damper. I have a boundary pump and supermiata damper on the shelf to go onto the engine next rebuild for safety.
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11-19-2019, 04:16 PM
#22
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It's an interesting thought. If the overloading the gears idea is true, then it helps that my car has always had 1 or two turbos on it with no oil restrictor, and I only run 10-30 motor oil. Both of those would help keep the stock gears alive if overloading them is a cause of failure.
There are probably four things at play:
1. Relief flow
2. Crank harmonics
3. Oil pump drive
4. Gear strength
The relief flow is also something Mazda improved over the years, with the 01-05 pump having a much bigger relief channel in the pump compared to the earlier pumps:
Old pump:
01-05 pump:
The crank harmonics also come into play as people have had oil pump failures from removing the harmonic balancer alone.
This probably ties together with point 3 and point 4. The crank drive is with two flats with plenty of play. This causes small impacts on the gears and with the two flats also two stress points on the gears itself.
A splined drive like a 2JZ pump is much more robust.
Finally the gears themselves I think are made of sintered metal (correct me if I am wrong), so not very strong themselves.
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02-24-2021, 09:10 AM
#23
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I'm not sure who or when the inverted 'bob bundy' was applied, but it's pretty funny. When I was building my car I took a lot of inspiration from bbundy's posts.
There aren't really many more details to what I posted above. The oil pump needs to have the relief valve removed and blocked up so it doesn't leak. I just use an aluminium plug. The oil pressure relief valve most commonly used is the Peterson 09-0160 which has -10AN fittings. You need to weld a -10 bung or tap a fitting into the sump, but be careful where you place it so you can clear the subframe and try not to squirt oil onto the crank. Plumbing is simple... Oil filter output (use a sandwhich plate) -> relief valve -> oil cooler -> oil filter sandwich plate input. Return from relief valve to sump. You can also put the valve in the return line from the oil cooler too if you want less pressure drop, but it means the cooler is slightly less effective as it's cooling the return oil too so the output to the engine will be slightly hotter.
The Peterson valve flows a lot more oil, and doesn't chatter.. it also has much better oil pressure control and is easily adjustable. The theory is that the stock oil pressure valve gets either overcome with too much oil and backpressures into the gears blowing them apart, or alternatively, the stock valve can chatter and send pulses back down into the gears.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying not to run a Boundary pump, or a ATI damper. This works well with both, but I'm currently running a stock pump to 9k on track with a cut down oem damper. I have a boundary pump and supermiata damper on the shelf to go onto the engine next rebuild for safety.
There aren't really many more details to what I posted above. The oil pump needs to have the relief valve removed and blocked up so it doesn't leak. I just use an aluminium plug. The oil pressure relief valve most commonly used is the Peterson 09-0160 which has -10AN fittings. You need to weld a -10 bung or tap a fitting into the sump, but be careful where you place it so you can clear the subframe and try not to squirt oil onto the crank. Plumbing is simple... Oil filter output (use a sandwhich plate) -> relief valve -> oil cooler -> oil filter sandwich plate input. Return from relief valve to sump. You can also put the valve in the return line from the oil cooler too if you want less pressure drop, but it means the cooler is slightly less effective as it's cooling the return oil too so the output to the engine will be slightly hotter.
The Peterson valve flows a lot more oil, and doesn't chatter.. it also has much better oil pressure control and is easily adjustable. The theory is that the stock oil pressure valve gets either overcome with too much oil and backpressures into the gears blowing them apart, or alternatively, the stock valve can chatter and send pulses back down into the gears.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying not to run a Boundary pump, or a ATI damper. This works well with both, but I'm currently running a stock pump to 9k on track with a cut down oem damper. I have a boundary pump and supermiata damper on the shelf to go onto the engine next rebuild for safety.
Thank God, Brain, You, and all the others on this site. I've gone through 3 engines from this very issue. All were machined, cleaner than my rifle at the armory, and build to perfection (sort of). First one had some issues due to a worn crank, entirely my fault. Second one I used a BE Pump (non-VVT) and after 300 miles and still within the break-in period not under any boost, it fried a couple bearings. Third time, I switched to a BE VVT pump, and dammit... no oil even made it to the head. Less than 7 miles on it and it sounded like the head was angry. Fried more bearings, and sure enough, the oil pump relief valve was stuck wide open. it was all still super clean too. Now, the plan is to run the Peterson 09-0160 valve, a good sandwich plate, a new BE VVT pump, and hope to god this doesn't happen again. I'm only looking to spin it to 8k, 18-25psi, and just have a fun little street car. Again, thank you all. This site has helped me every step of the way in my endeavors building a miata from ground up.
I'm just a retire Marine who welds and builds cars...
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03-02-2021, 10:08 AM
#24
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Question: When/if a BE relief valve gets stuck in the "up" position (i.e. the plunger is frozen all the way up in the bore) does that result in ALLOFIT pressure at all times and if so, will that cause premature bearing failure due to excessive oil pressure at low temps and/or high revs?
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03-02-2021, 11:08 AM
#25
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Granbury Texas
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Stuck closed, massive oil pressure.
I don't know what a Miata pump can create with a closed relief valve but I DO KNOW what an early Honda pump can do...
Cold, stuck shut, I saw just over 400 psi before it blew the oil filter OFF the engine and out through the front grill!
Thank GOD it was not pointed at the radiator, just missed it by a fraction. Trashed the grill and the shop
After this car I ALWAYS polished the crap out of the relief valve and it's bore on any engine I messed with.
A tiny unfixable flaw doomed the pump for me every single time after that experience...
Stuck fully open, **** poor OP that gets worse as the engine warms up is what I would expect.
I don't know what a Miata pump can create with a closed relief valve but I DO KNOW what an early Honda pump can do...
Cold, stuck shut, I saw just over 400 psi before it blew the oil filter OFF the engine and out through the front grill!
Thank GOD it was not pointed at the radiator, just missed it by a fraction. Trashed the grill and the shop
After this car I ALWAYS polished the crap out of the relief valve and it's bore on any engine I messed with.
A tiny unfixable flaw doomed the pump for me every single time after that experience...
Stuck fully open, **** poor OP that gets worse as the engine warms up is what I would expect.
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03-03-2021, 10:40 AM
#26
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Both of mine were stuck open, not from debris, but from heat cycle/bore roughness. When it was stuck open, there was no oil pressure at all in the engine. So low that it wasn't registering even 5psi. That when 3 of 4 main bearings, 2 of 4 rod bearings ate themselves up. Less than 300 miles on the first engine, les than 7 total on the second. A good polish in the relief bores can be a god fix, but not guaranteed. I'm curious to where others have placed their relieved oil back into the pan while using the external OP relief valve. I have a stock pump and a brand new BE VVT pump which I want to clean them both up and weld a solid aluminum plug in the OE relief valve. My plans are set, except where to weld in the last bung...
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03-03-2021, 11:43 AM
#27
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Both of mine were stuck open, not from debris, but from heat cycle/bore roughness. When it was stuck open, there was no oil pressure at all in the engine. So low that it wasn't registering even 5psi. That when 3 of 4 main bearings, 2 of 4 rod bearings ate themselves up. Less than 300 miles on the first engine, les than 7 total on the second. A good polish in the relief bores can be a god fix, but not guaranteed. I'm curious to where others have placed their relieved oil back into the pan while using the external OP relief valve. I have a stock pump and a brand new BE VVT pump which I want to clean them both up and weld a solid aluminum plug in the OE relief valve. My plans are set, except where to weld in the last bung...
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03-04-2021, 04:37 PM
#28
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That's exactly what I am doing, except I'm welding the top of the plug in place on the pump. Where are you looking to have that bung placed? I'm lost as to where it needs to be, or just where it fits. Doesn't the stock oil bypass just dump it at the front of the pan below the oil pump?
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03-06-2021, 12:12 PM
#29
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I just welded a plug in behind the OEM plunger, that way its as close to "factory closed". As for the bung on the pan, I think placing it near the front of the pan won't matter. Hopefully with any luck, this works. I'm taking pics of it all so I can make a good post on how I did it in hopes of helping others.
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03-10-2021, 09:02 AM
#30
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I just welded a plug in behind the OEM plunger, that way its as close to "factory closed". As for the bung on the pan, I think placing it near the front of the pan won't matter. Hopefully with any luck, this works. I'm taking pics of it all so I can make a good post on how I did it in hopes of helping others.
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