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Old 06-26-2015, 05:59 PM   #61
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I new you were gonna say that, so before somebody accuses me of cut and run, a have to be somewhere for about three hours or so. There is also a ton of math I need to do, I can work on it while I am at my appointment but there is no wifi. I also need a little more info on the combination and I can give a better answer. I need to know the length and diameter of the u bend pipe, whether or not there is a MAF ( I don't know if have them, delete them or what, I can Google it but you will save me time here ) and if it is in the stock location. Also, what is a " racing beat header " ? If you give me brand I will get the specs, otherwise I need inlet diameter at the head, style ( 4 into 1, 2 into 1 into collector) and collector diameter. I don't really need tube length but if you know it, fine. I'm not thinking exhaust at the moment.Finally, any grinding inside the VICS ?

I can give you a little start on wher my thought process is going,just so you don't think I'm full of doo. The reason VVT tuning is only going to help a little is this: dip in the torque curve means the cam is too " long " for the engine speed, has to much overlap (like way too much ) or is opening such that the cylinder does not get a full charge . But that is crap because the timing events seem fine up to that point and if the cam were non variable they would be constant at all RPMs anyway. Shortening the duration or overlap at a specific RPM seems odd, doesn't it ? I mean the VVT map would be weird right ? Long, then short at 3000 then long again ? Seems more like a charge issue and diamonds to dollars, it 's in the intake side. Best guesses without the math, not the VICS opening point, he has that programmed to open at 6400 I think. It's not opening too soon then. It was designed, I think, to do it's thing on the small side until about 5000 right ? Correct me if I am wrong cuz I admit I am not sure. Unfortunately, 3000 isn't in a good place harmonically for an intake tract tuned for 5000. That's the way the factory made them though and part of the reason y guys all have some sort of dip there.. I am betting the problem is either the U pipe, Non stock MAF location, (if used ) or less that 6 inches of straight pipe leading to it ( again, assuming you are using one.).it's a harmonic resonance thing, non stock combo mixed with non optimal sizing for the RPM. I am guessing a great big reversion pulse pushing the air the other way. Be gentle with me here, I don't know your engines as intimately as you folks do and we are doing this kinda off the top of the head while I am thinking about my appointment. I promise when I get back I will give you my best answer ( if you can get me the data I asked for ) then you can call shenanigans or not. Thanks. BTW, I' m not Russian ( not that there is anything wrong with that, but who knows what people think ) Ivan was my dog. Lol.

Last edited by Pontiacivan; 06-26-2015 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 06-26-2015, 08:37 PM   #62
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Ok, I'm back. We quit early because I was " to distracted, with whatever the hell you're doodling over there, to be productive. " see, when I gave my opening comments the only thing I had seen from the dyno post was the dyno graph and the suggestion about the VVT tables. Wha to had said to myself was " yeah, tweaking them is gonna help some but not 18-20 lbs/ft worth."

I didn't think you could get me the info I requested before I left so, in the interest of full disclosure I took another look at the post. I didn't want to read too much in case it had been sorted out and you folks had found the answer. I don't cheat on tests. There's no point to it. So I only read the next couple of replies hoping the owner had posted some more specs...then I saw the VVT tables. My original rejection was based on the assumption ( I know, my bad ) that the VVT would be more or less progressive as the engine speed increased. I figured it wouldn't make sense for the cam to suddenly get smaller at 3000 grand and then longer again. Never occurred to me it would be that long at an RPM these engines are known to be weak at. I do believe the U pipe is contributing somewhat to the intakes dislike for 3000 ish area, I can still do the math on it if you give me the numbers but I have to agree, until that cam shortens up at the dip area most of that charge is probably going out the tailpipe. Surprised they didn't smell fuel while they were on the dyno. Lol. Let me know me final grade . Hope I did OK.
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:14 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
<p></p><p>So on a Miata engine thats like 20hp more than stock 10:1 comp? Sounds like &quot;eh&quot; tuning to me.</p>
Ok, so I have been searching the heck out of the net so I can understand the Miata engine line and I gotta say, I haven't seen any 1.6 that put out 130 HP stock. In fact, the best seems to be about 116 and most years seem to be around 110. Don't get me wrong, that's still a respectable 1.12 HP per CID in stock form versus my 1.07 but I don't have any variable cam timing or dual phase intake manifold. That version of mine makes 1.14 per in stock form but won't package in my car. What I'm really wondering, because this is the stuff I want to learn from you folks, is what mods are you making to get 40 HP over stock ? That's 36% which is awesome ! What is the drivability like after ? Also, I am going to the local salvage yard tomorrow. I doubt highly they have any Miatas, was the VICS used on any other Mazda engine ? I gotta get some hard numbers off one of these things. ( y'all are gonna wind up getting me to by a Miata, I can see it now. )
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Old 06-26-2015, 10:16 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontiacivan View Post
I new you were gonna say that, so before somebody accuses me of cut and run, a have to be somewhere for about three hours or so. There is also a ton of math I need to do, I can work on it while I am at my appointment but there is no wifi. I also need a little more info on the combination and I can give a better answer. I need to know the length and diameter of the u bend pipe, whether or not there is a MAF ( I don't know if have them, delete them or what, I can Google it but you will save me time here ) and if it is in the stock location. Also, what is a " racing beat header " ? If you give me brand I will get the specs, otherwise I need inlet diameter at the head, style ( 4 into 1, 2 into 1 into collector) and collector diameter. I don't really need tube length but if you know it, fine. I'm not thinking exhaust at the moment.Finally, any grinding inside the VICS ?

I can give you a little start on wher my thought process is going,just so you don't think I'm full of doo. The reason VVT tuning is only going to help a little is this: dip in the torque curve means the cam is too " long " for the engine speed, has to much overlap (like way too much ) or is opening such that the cylinder does not get a full charge . But that is crap because the timing events seem fine up to that point and if the cam were non variable they would be constant at all RPMs anyway. Shortening the duration or overlap at a specific RPM seems odd, doesn't it ? I mean the VVT map would be weird right ? Long, then short at 3000 then long again ? Seems more like a charge issue and diamonds to dollars, it 's in the intake side. Best guesses without the math, not the VICS opening point, he has that programmed to open at 6400 I think. It's not opening too soon then. It was designed, I think, to do it's thing on the small side until about 5000 right ? Correct me if I am wrong cuz I admit I am not sure. Unfortunately, 3000 isn't in a good place harmonically for an intake tract tuned for 5000. That's the way the factory made them though and part of the reason y guys all have some sort of dip there.. I am betting the problem is either the U pipe, Non stock MAF location, (if used ) or less that 6 inches of straight pipe leading to it ( again, assuming you are using one.).it's a harmonic resonance thing, non stock combo mixed with non optimal sizing for the RPM. I am guessing a great big reversion pulse pushing the air the other way. Be gentle with me here, I don't know your engines as intimately as you folks do and we are doing this kinda off the top of the head while I am thinking about my appointment. I promise when I get back I will give you my best answer ( if you can get me the data I asked for ) then you can call shenanigans or not. Thanks. BTW, I' m not Russian ( not that there is anything wrong with that, but who knows what people think ) Ivan was my dog. Lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontiacivan View Post
Ok, I'm back. We quit early because I was " to distracted, with whatever the hell you're doodling over there, to be productive. " see, when I gave my opening comments the only thing I had seen from the dyno post was the dyno graph and the suggestion about the VVT tables. Wha to had said to myself was " yeah, tweaking them is gonna help some but not 18-20 lbs/ft worth."

I didn't think you could get me the info I requested before I left so, in the interest of full disclosure I took another look at the post. I didn't want to read too much in case it had been sorted out and you folks had found the answer. I don't cheat on tests. There's no point to it. So I only read the next couple of replies hoping the owner had posted some more specs...then I saw the VVT tables. My original rejection was based on the assumption ( I know, my bad ) that the VVT would be more or less progressive as the engine speed increased. I figured it wouldn't make sense for the cam to suddenly get smaller at 3000 grand and then longer again. Never occurred to me it would be that long at an RPM these engines are known to be weak at. I do believe the U pipe is contributing somewhat to the intakes dislike for 3000 ish area, I can still do the math on it if you give me the numbers but I have to agree, until that cam shortens up at the dip area most of that charge is probably going out the tailpipe. Surprised they didn't smell fuel while they were on the dyno. Lol. Let me know me final grade . Hope I did OK.
You didn't. Not even close.
You get an A for effort though, and I really mean that. But not even close with the theory
I'll dissect later. When I'm bored
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontiacivan View Post
Ok, so I have been searching the heck out of the net so I can understand the Miata engine line and I gotta say, I haven't seen any 1.6 that put out 130 HP stock. In fact, the best seems to be about 116 and most years seem to be around 110. Don't get me wrong, that's still a respectable 1.12 HP per CID in stock form versus my 1.07 but I don't have any variable cam timing or dual phase intake manifold. That version of mine makes 1.14 per in stock form but won't package in my car. What I'm really wondering, because this is the stuff I want to learn from you folks, is what mods are you making to get 40 HP over stock ? That's 36% which is awesome ! What is the drivability like after ? Also, I am going to the local salvage yard tomorrow. I doubt highly they have any Miatas, was the VICS used on any other Mazda engine ? I gotta get some hard numbers off one of these things. ( y'all are gonna wind up getting me to by a Miata, I can see it now. )
1.6 B6 miata has neither of those things. or anything new/modern/nice

It's like the crappiest motor in the line up.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:01 PM   #65
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Thanks, I genuinely appreciate your time. I really would like to know what the final answer was. ( I assume you're trying to say it got figured out.) since I'm far from a noob, you REALLY gotta explain that VVT table. You better not tell me it was something like the VICS being stuck open either or I'll scream. Lol. Thanks for the good grade for effort. I feel like I am looking for something specific to the engine and skipping something basic. I learned a long time ago, the engine doesn't care who made it. It only cares about air,fuel and spark. Our job is to make sure it gets the right amount of each, at the right time.
BTW :Should I start a fresh thread for this conversation ?
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:17 PM   #66
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Lol, I' m so stupid. Like I mentioned, I don't have VVT so consequently I have never even looked at a table. I thought the values were in degrees of duration. I am crash coursing my self right now. Thanks again.
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:21 PM   #67
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Default Poly Quad Head - Anyone heard of it or tried it?

The 1.6 engine has no VVT.
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:21 AM   #68
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A 1.6 miata makes 116hp with a mechanical wind vane air meter in the intake, no VVT, no dual plane intake, pansy timing with no computer advance. Lucky it even has an idle speed controller, lawn mowers of the same vintage are more technologically advanced.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:08 AM   #69
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to be clear, the dyno being talked about is a 1.8 bp6d vvt engine
the other topic is comparing his v8 to a 1.6 b6

Quote:
I learned a long time ago, the engine doesn't care who made it
I disagree.
I've been tuning honda's a long time ago, and subaru's for the past 10 years, and a bit of evo's as well. I've also piddled around with a couple LS1's (corvette's). Since 08 tinkering with miata's. Each engine has way different characteristics, and needed way different approaches to tuning to make good power. While for the most part, and in the most broad sense, each just needs air fuel adn spark, if you applied the same tuning strategy to each, you'd ruin some engines and not make much power on others. I'm still learning some of the very fine details of fine tuning some of the more modern tuning solutions (in this case, megasquirt ms3), and still have a lot to learn to be a "pro", but even now I already see that this is the case.

That's just my opinion. Gone are the days of just bolting on parts, twisting a **** on some carbs, and making power. We got stuff like injector timing, spark dwell, sequential....everything, and all sorts of other gizmo's to extract that last 1%.

And don't even get me started on PROPER modern cars that use computers 10x more powerful than what we have for miata's lol
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:01 AM   #70
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I guess I can't win here. My statement was 100% true. The engine doesn't care. It's the first thing they teach in automotive engine diagnosis. You are right about each engine needing unique tuning. A simpler way to say it would be " our job is to make sure it gets the right amount of each at the right time." That's what tuning is. You said you have been tuning for 10 years ( you don't mention if your automotive experience is longer than that.) . I have been doing it for 34. I lived through an era when everybody ran a Holley carb because they were symmetrical and pretty, even though the Rochester was far superior. I lived during the days when mechanics pulled all the electronic engine controls in favor of carbs because they forgot the basics of A,F,R and blamed every engine problem on the tech. (this computer stuff is just a fad anyway right ?) I was around when the factory was the only group who could program the ECMs. Because I was an electronics tech, and later a computer tech, I cut my teeth modifying sensors to send false data so we could get better fuel and spark . We were limited by the maximum values in the tables though. Later, when PCs became common place, I began programming PROMs. I did forced induction LONG before you could just jump on EBay and buy a turbo. I street raced as a sole form of income for a while before most of the actors in Fast and Furious were even born. I learned to drift In a two ton brick. I never really payed attention to DOHC because you could only find it on 4 cylinder engines and that just wasn't my cup of tea. I'm an old man, but I never stop learning. I realize I came In a little hot and heavy and I was genuinely confused about the lack of concern on the topic. I had to be reminded that we live in a time when individuals download music off the net without paying and don't care whether it's legal or not. Laws are meaningless nowadays unless it personally affects someone. I made my apologies,tried to return to topic and even tried to expand my understanding here but I guess the damage is done, I probably need to move on to a forum that is less clicky. People who tune on GMs and Ford seem to be a little more welcoming. I truly appreciate anyone here who tried to help and tried to be nice after one of your members was so rude. If I had to put money on it, I' m guessing he is pushing 30, too many kids, bills and not enough time or cash for his hobby. ( after all his abuse I feel I have earned the right to pass my own judgement on him, like he did to me. ) I won't bother you folks again. Some final thoughts for you would be, the VICS manifold is designed horribly wrong. Just because the factory designed it, doesn't' make it a good part. The " small " ports are WAY to big and the auxiliary ports have the crappiest air path I have ever seen. ( it took me for ever to find a picture of the upper plenum, it's junk.) That's why the torque dip is common to most of your builds. Nothing other than the intake or exhaust can mess up the curve so specifically. Sure, on an electronic cam, bad programing can cause issues. Put a non adjustable cam in and the problem will still be there. Tuning the intake and exhaust is more than slapping on parts. I could have taught you how to fix that but everybody here is smarter than me. We could have learned from each other but I guess not.

P.S. Either the 1.6 is " the crappiest engine in the line" or a marvel of technology for the time. You can't have it both ways. Engines don't make more than 1 HP per cube by accident..

Feel free to ban my user name, it doesn't really matter and best of luck to everybody here. I know how driving a short wheelbase car, with a great power to weight ratio, can make you feel like you're a great driver. Maybe someday, some off you will graduate to larger vehicle and realize what real driving skills have to be to get around the track or through the slalom.

Peace.
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:45 AM   #71
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lolol

You are all stupid and suck at driving and I am smart and good at it. I own underwear older than you, and I raced Vin Diesel in those panties. Get off my yard and get a real car you durn kids! I race cars for money. My knowledge is superior, I invented AIDS! Interior crocodile alligator...

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Old 06-27-2015, 03:56 PM   #72
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Oh, look. My shoe is untied.
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Old 06-27-2015, 04:35 PM   #73
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Default "Peace", isn't that what always follows a rash of insults?

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