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Old 01-18-2010, 10:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Thanks for sending the hood my way. Make sure and drop some ATF down the cylinder walls before cranking on that old-*** 1.6.
Will do.

Gotta wait until the spark plug holes dry up...then blow out all the dead leaves.

I'm just gonna plop it in and run it like it was free until it either blows or I finish building another motor.

I found a deal on some rods I can't pass up, and am just going to rebuild my other motor here in the garage. If I do everything myself except for decking the head I might be out $700...and can run 250whp without fear.

I'm glad the hood got there safe and in time to paint before MSRH.

My brother said he'll never be the same again.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:18 AM   #42
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If I do everything myself except for decking the head I might be out $700...and can run 250whp without fear.
Broham, check out one of the bigger NAPAs in your area. I've got one 2 miles from my office that has a huge machine shop, they have unbeatable prices and quick turnaround. They can give you a quick hone and deck the head for cheap. While you are at it, have them check for pin fitment in the rods, it's very cheap insurance. There is a thread here detailing the importance of this, my local shop does this for outright cheap. The rest, DIY to your heart's content. Just measure everything, and ask lots of questions. As I've mentioned, I got a 97 1.8 longblock with 70k, no ring ridge and hone hatch was still very nice, these motors are tough and wear very well.
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:20 AM   #43
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Thanks for the advice bud. I'm going to try to keep costs to a minimum...so every little bit counts.

I'm still depressed about not going FE3. The part that kills that swap is the flywheel/clutch mating. Were it not for having to source an 8 bolt flywheel that fits a 1.8L clutch (whereas my ACT XT is a 1.6 size)...the swap would cost 40% less.

I'm going to go the more gradual route.


To reassess my goals, I'm looking for a dependable 275-300whp. More than this would have been nice on the FE3...but I'm sure 300 is the limit for a mildly built 1.6L. At this point I'd be tearing through trannies faster than hustler anyhow.

If I build my motor I can push my current turbo setup without fear. I expect my combo of mani, turbo, and intake manifold to max out around 240-250whp.

I can then look for a bigger turbo, build a mani/dp for it, and find someone to custom fab a short runner, large plenum intake, and shoot for the big three oh oh.


Here's to making lemonade out of lemons.
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:34 AM   #44
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Will do.

Gotta wait until the spark plug holes dry up...then blow out all the dead leaves.
I plugged the t-body and exhaust ports with rags but eventually the plastic bag blew off and now you have a few plants growing. Send me the carnage pics when it ends.

I won't have any paint on my hood before Houston, maybe the next event though.
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:01 AM   #45
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I don't think it's going to be bad...just giving you grief.

If you're not painting I guess you are just mounting so you can drive the car down with vented hood and not have to worry about taking two hoods back?

Either way I'm glad it worked out for both of us...last encounter we had you were the only one that got any gratification out of it.

Big thanks for the motor. It means I won't be fretting about my DD all damn semester and can focus on school. I'll rebuild the other motor this summer.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:44 PM   #46
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Advice wanted...I'm open to anything at this point.

Do I build, rebuild, or swap.

I'm reconsidering building a 1.6L, which I can afford if I do all the work myself. I just don't know if I'm going to be content with the power. My current setup is maxed at 220whp, and even my upgrade compressor will barely hit 250whp. I'm okay building a 1.6L, but don't want to build a motor AND buy another turbo setup unless I'm moving up to something bigger.


I REEEEAAAALLLLYYY want more power. I'm willing to put in the work, just need a direction. I spent all day in the garage Sunday organizing and cleaning to get ready for a build, I've got my budget lined out (3 months ahead on mortgage), and have been pricing out every option with detailed parts and process lists.

I'd like to be near 300whp dependably.

I feel like that's a feat, even for a built 1.6L...which is why I'm pushing for the FE3.


Here's a pro/con breakdown:

Built 1.6L - $600-2400 + possible turbo upgrade (just rods all in garage--->forged everything, cams, and professional machine work)

Pros

-I have two in the garage
-No fabrication
-ironed-out drivetrain solutions

Cons

-current setup won't hit goals
-build as expensive as (or easily double) FE3 hardware costs
-highly stressed components


FE3T - $975 + custom manifold N/A (most 1.8L hotside parts will work, and will go eBay intercooler route)

Pros

-more than sufficient strength w/o forged internals
-no replacement for displacement
-will murder the cars I still can't keep up with (I want to make Z06s and V8 M3s my bishes)
-well capable of goals without pushing the ragged edge
-unique, but still a paved road thanks to Rob, Danny and Randy

Cons
-drivetrain needs attention (626 flywheel, 1.8L clutch, B2000 bellhousing)
-fabrication
-all or none swap, like V8 but less downtime (not a concern)
-would be n/a for a while
-fabricating intake manifold (biggest worry)


I can sell my 1.6L setup and piece together a decent FE3 turbo setup. I can handle the drivetrain issues, and either route would eventually require a 6spd or RX7 transmission. The 1.6L would be "easier" but more expensive with the 6 gear box, which doesn't mate to the FE3. The RX7 would take fabrication to mate to either.


Thanks in advance,

Damon


EDIT: Has anyone else noticed the BSFC variable is hard to nail and have the results match real world dyno result for our cars? I know we should use 0.51, but get closer results in the low 0.40s. Anyone have a good number they use, and know why?

Last edited by gospeed81; 01-20-2010 at 01:52 PM. Reason: oh yeah...prices
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:03 PM   #47
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The answer is obvious here, built 1.6 with 1.8 clutch .

Serious side, I would seriously think about cost creep with that FE3 swap. Even with my 1.8/'00 head swap, the incidental cost has been high. Granted, I didn't scrounge much, if at all, and didn't take advantage of some budget solutions, but still. I think there are some daunting aspects of that FE3 swap, like oil pan fab(!). Also, do you have the time to dedicate to all that fab work? 1.6, or even a 1.8 swap is a really easy bolt in proposition. Along those lines, why not source a 1.8, and do a budg build of that? Easier to get to 300 wheel, less stressed than 1.6, but none of the fab work of the other swap.

I'm probably not smart enough to give much more advice, so I'll butt out now.
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:08 PM   #48
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Mild steel fab work is not biggie for me, although I'm not going to build my own exhaust mani or downpipe.

I've considered the 1.8L quite a bit, and don't want to upgrade EVERYTHING for a ~20% gain.

I would upgrade everything for an FE3...which has TWICE the headroom stock of any BP/B6.

The 300whp goal is for now...once I get a real tranny in there I'm sure I'll turn it up. This is another downside for the 1.6L, you can't turn it up any farther...300whp is 11 for that thing.
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:59 PM   #49
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Save money and just build the 1.6. Its adequate for you performance goals
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:04 PM   #50
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Save money and just build the 1.6. Its adequate for you performance goals
Exactly what I'm working on...thanks to a lot of good advice (outside of this thread obviously).

I found a great deal on forged Belfab rods yesterday and am pondering some Supertech pistons.

Pistons raise the price a good house payment (~$850) since I'll have to get a shop to bore and hone on top of part price.

With the stock slugs I can just break the glaze on the beautiful cylinders of my near pristine back-up motor. This thing is crazy clean...


I'm hoping that with a good electronic det can setup (see Jeff Cieleski thread) and the water injection I won't have to worry about detonation tearing up ringlands.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:26 PM   #51
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Driving this thing is getting funner by the day.

It leaves a cloud pulling away from stoplights...bad enough people change lanes. I'm waiting to get pulled over for that.

Yesterday I noticed my oil pressure gauge dancing around...so I pulled over and added oil. It still kept dancing at high rpm/load...so I deduced it's knock (hooray for 1.6L OEM op/knock sensor).

What would provoke detonation as a motor destroys itself?

I'm sure I'll find out soon enough when I tear this motor down, but I was hoping to make it to next weekend when I can swap hustlerbunny's old 1.6 in.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:24 AM   #52
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more load, more force in the cylinders which sounds normal to me for ur gauge to be going crazy if ur rings are toast.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:34 AM   #53
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Just curious, does the FE3 use the 1.6 or 1.8 exhaust manifold flange?
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:53 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenzo42 View Post
Just curious, does the FE3 use the 1.6 or 1.8 exhaust manifold flange?
The 1.8L flange nearly* matches. You have to oval out a few holes, drill an extra, and port the outer side of the two inside runners...but otherwise the runner spacing is nearly the same.

Check the solomiata write-up.

As I assemble the parts for a built 1.6L, and come to terms how incredibly hard it is to push past 250whp with the BP/B6, I keep regretting not just jumping in.

If you're considering it, I say go for it. I'll share my research thus far, and I'm sure Rob can help too.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:04 PM   #55
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Due to the discussion going on in this thread:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t43274-3/

And knowing I should be considering forged pistons anyhow...


How much benefit toward my 300whp goal will I see with a 2mm overbore (80mm) pistons??

$900 worth??

Looks like this is the biggest size I can ready find, and puts me at 1.68L.

Have heard of some loonies putting in 81.5mm slugs, which work out to almost 1.75L...but they would be from some other motor (4AG or B18), and would require pin fitment work and a lot of guessing on compression ratio.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:53 PM   #56
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80mm! Holy i went with 79.5mm i tihnk, cant remember to long ago...bought it all from belfab racing, good guy. CR was 8:8:1 i believe. Whats an extra 1.5mm 10 hp? Im doing this **** in school right now but im to lazy to calculate it lol, someone else chime in.
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Old 01-30-2010, 07:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
Due to the discussion going on in this thread:


Have heard of some loonies putting in 81.5mm slugs, which work out to almost 1.75L...but they would be from some other motor (4AG or B18), and would require pin fitment work and a lot of guessing on compression ratio.
Shouldn't be any guessing involved in calculating the compression ratio for 81.5 mm pistons. You need to do some measuring (combustion chamber volume, actual bore size (overboring a cylinder raises compression without changing anything else), compressed head gasket thickness and volume of the cylinder with the actual piston located at true TDC. The only time "guessing" is involved in compression ration is when people make assumptions about head gasket thickness, combustion chamber volume or what the volume of the cylinder is with the piston at top dead center (e.g, dished and domed pistons..flattops w/o valve reliefs are easy)
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:18 AM   #58
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I wouldn't guess myself, but loosely used the term as there was no way to tell without parts in hand etc. Not an OTS kind of order, and far from plug and play. I'm gonna go back to the simple plan of stock slugs. Gasket sets add up fast...



WHO KNOWS ABOUT REBUILD KITS???


I've priced out RockAuto, Rosenthal, FM, and eBay stuff. Can't get away under $500 with the first three...and I worry about eBay as their pictures show one thing, and the item list shows another.

Best I did was a mix between Rosenthal and RockAuto, picking the cheapest parts of each, and managed to get all bearing, rings, gaskets, and pilot/throwout, injector rubber and slave rebuild for about $520.

I seem to remember Braineack doing much better than this. Any help appreciated. I know NA6C has done this just a few times...hoping he'll chime in.
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Old 01-31-2010, 12:04 PM   #59
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Count on mazda motorsports to be ~20% cheaper than Rosenthal. I can add up my mms receipts later, but in the 5-600 range for me, including the engine kit, bearings, timing belt, wp, idler & tensioner (were ~$90 for both), and some misc fasteners. I got the 4W intake and plenum gasket separate from the engine kit. I didn't get the rings there, as they came with my supertechs. Brain did a lot better than that on ebay, iirc. Make sure you get a metal hg if you're doing your B6.
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Old 01-31-2010, 09:47 PM   #60
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id budget build a boosted 1.6
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