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Old 09-10-2011, 05:17 AM   #1
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Default Where is my top end power?

I just did a 1.8 engine swap with flyin miata manifold and I am short of at least 60bhp at the top end. Here's the dyne chart(every square is 25bhp)



The white line is what my car is doing now and the purple line is another car with the same setup, same engine type. same Garrett turbo (GT2560r), same exhaust, injectors,ecu. The difference are: the exhaust manifold, he is running eBay exhaust manifold and me flyin miata manifold, I am running COP and I am running water injection.

I cannot bring myself to believe that an ebay manifold will make 60bhp more than me!!!

I suspect the following:
- There is something wrong with my exhaust, it collapse or choked
- when rebuilding my head, I got the timing wrong. But my car is idling perfectly and not missing at all, would it still be the case?
- that the eBay manifold is making a lot more power in the top end because it is tubular and the flyin miata ones are log manifold?

Have I missed out anything? Could my engine be fuked? But i am not losing compression, engine oil or coolant and it is holding boost all the way to redline.

Please help.
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Last edited by nismo502; 09-10-2011 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:41 AM   #2
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same exact tune?
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Old 09-10-2011, 07:10 AM   #3
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Same tuner. I suppose the tune is not far off
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:02 AM   #4
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your numbers look like torque where his looks like hp...
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:46 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
your numbers look like torque where his looks like hp...
That's bad...they are both bhp. Mine looks like it is choking at the top end. And I wonder why.
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #6
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what are the final numbers? and what boost level? and how much water?

the only other time ive seen a HP curve like that is with WI
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Old 09-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
what are the final numbers? and what boost level? and how much water?

the only other time ive seen a HP curve like that is with WI
The final number is a miserable 175bhp on 12psi. I am running the smallest (suppose to be for small engine turbo cars) water injector that came with the aem kit.

It is actually making lesser bhp than my 1.6 prior to the swap.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:13 PM   #8
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You described the white line and purple line. What is the green line?
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:16 PM   #9
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You described the white line and purple line. What is the green line?

The green line is the same as the white line but with slight differences in my ecu tune.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:22 PM   #10
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just to add on another difference, I am running COP and the purple line is not. Would COP makes a difference if not setup properly? I am running dwell of 2.5ms
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:29 PM   #11
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Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:

1. A tubular manifold will flow better than a log, but not this much better. Remember that the main restriction in the exhaust is the turbo.
2. Make sure of the condition of the intake. Even though you are maintaining boost, your turbo may be working really hard to keep that boost if there is a leak.
3. Do a run without WI using the timing that was used on the other car. It is worth it to eliminate the variable.
4. Honestly, aside from a boost leak, this looks like a valve timing or lift thing to me. Your peak is below 5500. You'll also notice that you're making more power (hence more torque) at the lower RPMs than the other guy. Everything lined up? Cams OK? Lifters OK?

Anyway, just thinking out loud and I'm sure there are things I've missed.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by nismo502 View Post
just to add on another difference, I am running COP and the purple line is not. Would COP makes a difference if not setup properly? I am running dwell of 2.5ms
Only if you are misfiring or if you are running a delayed spark advance compared to the other car.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:38 PM   #13
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1. A tubular manifold will flow better than a log, but not this much better. Remember that the main restriction in the exhaust is the turbo.
Agreed, thats what I thought too
2. Make sure of the condition of the intake. Even though you are maintaining boost, your turbo may be working really hard to keep that boost if there is a leak.
I also made a run without the airfilter, there is not much difference
3. Do a run without WI using the timing that was used on the other car. It is worth it to eliminate the variable.
Ya I will try that
4. Honestly, aside from a boost leak, this looks like a valve timing or lift thing to me. Your peak is below 5500. You'll also notice that you're making more power (hence more torque) at the lower RPMs than the other guy.

I do not think there is a boost leak because it is maintaining boost level throughout the rev range. Here is my boost chart, the 2nd box is the one, it is holding boost till the end.

Everything lined up? Cams OK? Lifters OK?
Ahh, that is what i need to find out now because I had a headgasket change during the swap. Now, if the cams and lifters are problematic or if not lined out properly, wouldnt there be idling problem or misfiring during high rev?
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #14
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What are your VE values compared to his with the water injection if you are indeed running the same injectors and req fuel? Just curious. I'm wondering what adding too much water would like like with afr/ve ratio? Would you have to add more fuel to get a burn?
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
What are your VE values compared to his with the water injection if you are indeed running the same injectors and req fuel? Just curious. I'm wondering what adding too much water would like like with afr? Would you have to add more fuel to get a burn?
I am running almost the same amount of fuel compared to his. This is a dyno comparison of a 1.6 (RED LINE, before swap) and 1.8 (WHITE LINE after swap) with same water injection setup and same turbo. I was running 14 psi for the 1.6 setup and 12psi for the 1.8 setup.

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Old 09-10-2011, 01:03 PM   #16
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Don't discount a boost leak. Your turbo has a fair amount of residual capacity to overcome a leak. But you'll be making it work much harder. The best way to check for a boost leak is to pressurize your intake and do a blead down test.

You do have boost sag. I'm guessing that your signal line for the wastegate is pre-intercooler? Moving it post-intercooler helps.

On WI, don't forget that WI by itself doesn't necessarilly make power. There are two mechanisms at work with WI:
1. "Chemical Intercooling": If you are injecting a good proportion of methyl alcohol, then you should be seeing a fair amount of temperature drop in the intake. That will increase power. If you are injecting 100% water (as I am), then this effect will not be very drastic (or may not be present at all) because the compressed air in your intake is already near the saturation point.
2. "Octane Boost": Adding WI will change the flame-front/pressure-rise properties in the combustion chamber. In this way, it acts like a high-octane fuel. How much of this happens is inversely proportional to your intake cooling. If you use up the chemical cooling in the intake (as you will with more alcohol), then there is less left over for the combustion chamber -- and vice versa. An "octane boost" by itself does not yield increased power -- in fact it can decrease power as it moves the point of maximum cylinder pressure to later in the combustion stroke. I'll bet that the HP curve Brain was talking about was aggressive WI coupled with no change to the spark map. A WI octane boost coupled with an increase in spark advance will increase power. It has to be tuned.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nismo502 View Post
I am running almost the same amount of fuel compared to his. This is a dyno comparison of a 1.6 (WHITE LINE, before swap) and 1.8 (RED LINE after swap) with same water injection setup and same turbo. I was running 14 psi for the 1.6 setup and 12psi for the 1.8 setup.

Confused. Different car? This curve doesn't match the original.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:10 PM   #18
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Wait, is white line your new 1.8 and red line your old 1.6? That would match.
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:19 PM   #19
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Wait, is white line your new 1.8 and red line your old 1.6? That would match.
Yes, my mbad for the mixup. white line is my new 1.8 and red my old 1.6
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Old 09-10-2011, 01:19 PM   #20
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Now, if the cams and lifters are problematic or if not lined out properly, wouldnt there be idling problem or misfiring during high rev?
Probably not. With a 2-valve per cylinder engine, if you had a cam lobe gone or a lifter compressed, you would definitely see it. With our 4-valve engines, you're just increasing overall flow capacity, but it usually won't result in a noticeable miss. Now, if both intakes or both exhausts on the same cylinder had an issue . . . but the chances of that are pretty remote.
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