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Old 02-13-2009, 01:48 AM   #21
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Thanks for the help vash. it should cost me about 60 bucks in fiberglass and resin/hardener to do this. The only alternative I can think of instead of permanent joining via glass cloth and resin is to mount it semi-permanently using industrial velcro around the front and using bolts on the side to anchor it.

If I bust up the air dam on a speed bump, obviously it would be a lot easier to replace it if it is only mounted in a semi-permanent fashion.

Then there is the worry of what happens if I **** this up and I end up with no front bumper. But that's what junkyards are for I guess.

Should I sand the air dam too to allow the resin to bite?
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:53 AM   #22
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I also think that I should drive the car around town with the kit installed semi-permanently to see if this is going to be a nightmare of ground clearance issues or not before I go for the permanent install. There are some places where the road is horrible (a starbucks that makes SUVs scrape entering the lot) but for the most part the roads are just really bumpy. Dunno if this will be an issue.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:43 AM   #23
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Somehow I missed the part where this was going to become part of the OE nose. I'm not sure any kind of joint is going to be able to sustain the force of a solid bumper pushing against that flexible nose. I think fail is inevitable. I'm still of the school for two noses - it's not that hard to swap them out if you use zip ties for all the stuff in the mouth. Then it's just the 10mm bolts/nuts.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Somehow I missed the part where this was going to become part of the OE nose. I'm not sure any kind of joint is going to be able to sustain the force of a solid bumper pushing against that flexible nose. I think fail is inevetable.
+1. Do not glass that thing to the nose! It's a racing part and not made to be pretty. That's likely why the fit isn't up to Garage Vary or Jubride standards. It's made to work, not to look good. If you glass that thing to your bumper, when the inevitable happens and you whack the crap out of it, it's not going to just damage the spoiler it'll then damage everything it's glassed to. That's why they created all those brackets. If it's fastened to cosmetic parts it'll rip them off when it goes.

That's all on the isc website along with the threads about them here. I'm guessing you asked ISC about the fit first. That's what I would have done before posting it here. I'd also guess they told you pretty much what I did.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:46 PM   #25
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Is this going to be a track car, street car, or show car?
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:11 PM   #26
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Street car from his earlier posts here and at an earlier discussion on the ISC dam.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:16 PM   #27
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Street car from his earlier posts here and at an earlier discussion on the ISC dam.


IMO on a street car it's the wrong tool for the job.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:22 PM   #28
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He was told it was a race part before. Insisted on getting one for the street anyway. Now he wants it to be pretty. I'm guessing he'll get it on, glass it up, paint it and rip the whole front of the car to pieces inside of a month. OK, maybe two as he'll be babying it around at first. 1st time he forgets it's on there, if it's not scraping all the time to remind him, - ouch.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:25 PM   #29
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:29 PM   #30
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He also said he was tracking the car. That's why I suggested two noses. It's not that big of a deal IMO. If the nose needs to be on full time, then a fiberglass nose is needed to mount it to.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:37 PM   #31
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It's a street/track car. I just don't want something that sticks out like a sore thumb

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Somehow I missed the part where this was going to become part of the OE nose. I'm not sure any kind of joint is going to be able to sustain the force of a solid bumper pushing against that flexible nose. I think fail is inevitable. I'm still of the school for two noses - it's not that hard to swap them out if you use zip ties for all the stuff in the mouth. Then it's just the 10mm bolts/nuts.
OK, what do you mean by "two noses?" You mean mount the air damn over the OEM bumper and hold it on via the braces and nothing else?

Also, what do you mean by "using zip ties"- what "stuff in the mouth" are you talking about? I've taken off the front clip a million times and I never saw anything worthy of being zip tied.

And if you aren't supposed to join the two together, why does it look like they are joined on half the pictures on their website? I just want the same level of pretty they achieved for their cars. Why have an ugly hack job when I can do things right and get the same functionality?

By the way, I NEVER said that glass was going to be load bearing except to the extent that the contours of the two don't perfectly match. The actual weight and downforce of the dam was going to be borne by the metal braces.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
He also said he was tracking the car. That's why I suggested two noses. It's not that big of a deal IMO. If the nose needs to be on full time, then a fiberglass nose is needed to mount it to.
Wait, they sell OEM shaped fiberglass noses for the miata?
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:21 PM   #33
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I meant a nose with this mounted on that is installed for a track event, then a regular "unmodified" nose for daily driving. Around the perimeter of the "mouth" is are holes that use a screw and plastic splayed inset to attach the skin and the black mouth piece. I just drilled a second hole immediately behind the OE hole and then loop a zip time through. It takes a few seconds to install and less to remove.

Not opposed to mounting the spoiler on the nose, opposed to feathering it in using glass resin etc. All those pics on the ISC site showing installs are set up so you can remove it with some tools. Your post above was giving me the idea you wanted to hide the seam with body work...no? I think even oncoming air is going to cause the bumper skin to flex some and that will naturally reveal a crack at the seam... eventually.

I don't know if they do, but there are a lot of noses out there that this could probably be mounted on with some work.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:49 PM   #34
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Maybe I'll just mount this to the OEM bumper using fasteners and paint it to match.

I hope that matching paint hides the fact that there is a seam between them. Honestly, the gap isn't noticeable until you are right up next to it.

Any tips on attachment?

So far I'm thinking:
-drill a hole on either side of the oem bumper and the air dam and then reinforce the hole with epoxied on steel washers on the backside- use nuts/bolts to fasten the sides (one bolt per side? two? more?)
-brace from the front of the splitter to the metal inside the bumper
-braces from the frame to the back of the splitter.

Sound good? How do you mount your air dam for track use?
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:05 PM   #35
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We used four nut/bolts on ours- no bracing and it was find up to 120mph for the weekend (until it got ripped off). Didn't somebody mention zeus fasteners?


Racerpartswholesale dzus fasteners

Lots of dzus stuff on eBay too.

Lots of "quick" fasteners here too:
Southco - DZUS
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:07 PM   #36
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Got it. Thanks.
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:36 PM   #37
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ok so heres the thing. don't bond the two together with glass. I'll give you step by step instructions here.
1) put the thing up to the car and position it where you want it to be.
clamp it in place lightly at the wheel well. make sure that it is in the propper orientation to be effective. (bottom level with the bottom of your rockers. don't let it get nose high. you spent all of that money for a functional piece so make it work the way it was designed to. don't be afraid to "persuade" it into place.

2) mount your brackets so it stays there and goes back into a repeatable spot every time, cause you are going to take the thing off and on a million times.

3) grab a sharpie and mark the places where it hits your bumper cover realy hard. these are the places you want to file or sand down so that it rests easily and naturaly in place. this takes a lot of trial and error so be patient.

4)sand all of the primer from the edges that meet up to the car and at least an inch away from the edge. the more the better as it's going to have to be reprimed and painted anyway. the goal here is to get down to the glass and through the primer and gel coat.

5) cover your bumper with blue painters tape. don't be shy. fiberglass resin shouldn't stick to it much. cover as much as you think is needed and then go a little more. make sure it is smooth as the smoother it is the better your results will be. it wouldn't hurt to either spray the tape with Pam (realy) or give it a coat of wax and just leave it on there. don't buff it off.

6) now bolt that snowplow back on. at this point it should almost drop into place and should take little effort to make it fit. don't worry about the gaps just yet we'll get to those in a minute. and don't worry if you sanded to far in some spots, it's fiberglass you can add more and it will be just as strong.

7) by this time you will have gone to home depot or pep boys and bought a couple of things.

fiberglass reinforced body filler(kitty hair in some cicles) it's green and thick
get a small can.
light weight body filler (usualy grey with red or blue hardener) this is regular bondo type stuff. small can
fiberglass resin with hardener (get extra hardener if you can) polyester resin is fine no need for epoxy at this point. small can as well
you sound like a beginner so get fiberglass mat not cloth.
latex gloves you'll thank me
box of tin foil.
can of acetone for cleanup
a couple of mason jars.
old pair of scissors
some body filler spreaders and last some cheap 1 dollar paint brushes.

8) note the gaps and make sure you have properly sanded with some good coarse paper to give it some tooth.
mix up a small amout of green filler as per the instructions on a piece of tin foil taped to a board or something. don't use card board or wax paper or something of that nature cause it could contaminate the filler and wreak all kinds of havoc on adheasion. a good rule of thumb is draw a line across your mound of filler with the hardener. that usualy gets you in the ball park of the right mix

9) fill the gaps from the front side with the filler. at first use small amounts untill you get the hang of how long you have to work with it.

10) grab a beer and chill out for about an hour.

11) make sure your gaps are filled and dont be afraid to goop it on pretty heavy. warning though the more you put on the more you have to sand it.
and make sure it is dry.

12) pull that barge off of the front of your car and look at the back side of the gaps you filled. there will probably be a good amout of filler build up back there. grab an old file or some realy coarse paper and go to town. this part is much easier if you hit your beer peak. flatten out only the back side. make it somewhat match.

13) now the fun stuff begins. pour some acetone in one jar( maybe an inch or so) and set aside. stick a brush in it. cut your mat into small strips or squares. for what you're doing I would rcomend 1" by 4" or so. this is not rocket science it doesn't have to be exact.

14) in the other jar mix a small amout of resin with something like a tongue depressor scraping the sides of the jar. the proper way to mix is by weight, but who the **** has the time or patience for that ****. they'll tell you to mix so many drops per so many ounces and such, but if mixed that way it takes days to dry. just give it a good sqiurt you'll figure out pretty quickly if you used to much or to little. if you find that you need more pot life(you added to much hardener) you can add a little acetone to it. this not only delays the hardening a bit, but also dilutes your mix and aids in saturating the mat. A LITTLE BIT GOES A LONG WAY

15) grab your brush and give that freshly sanded area a thin coat of resin. just make it sticky don't glob it on.

16) place a piece of mat on it. this is to reinforce where you've filled the gaps. now dip your brush and dab it on the mat. don't brush it you'll just **** it up. the goal here is to push the resin through the mat and saturate it. you'll know when you've put enough on 'cause it'll turn clear. I like to use the side of the brush and push it into the mat to kinda force the resin into it. you'll find your technique.

17) by this point you are high as a kite, so put your brush in the acetone jar as well as your mixing stick. empty your resin jar and clean it with a swish of acetone. don't let that **** harden in there or you'll have to get another one and your wife will kick your ***. grab another beer and take a break.

18) check back about every 15 minutes or so to see how it's drying. when it's tacky to the touch, but doesn't come off on your finger it's time to do another layer. two layers of good saturated mat should be plenty strong. so let it dry over night.

19) now you can smooth out the front side to make it look good. use the light weight filler. you'll thank me again.

20) from here is just a matter of lather rinse repeat.from step 3. sand it, fit it, sand it some more, fit it again etc. etc. drink more beer.

21) if you feel you must bond the two, use a two part epoxy along the back edge. but the part should fit well without much clamping or force before you do this. bonding flexible plastic(bumper) with rigid fiberglass via resin is a no no. there is just to much difference in the flex of materials.
\ hope all of this helps a bit. it might also help to look up some carbonfiber layup videos on youtube. look for the ones that are by a guy named tygaboy. it's good stuff and will give you a better understanding of the process.

Last edited by dynokiller90; 02-13-2009 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:58 PM   #38
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Dyno:
You listed a ton of steps, but what the hell are you doing there? It sounds like you're just trying to make the parts fit together better. I took the front clip off the car and they fit together fine now once I use clamps. I'm just going to put fasteners where the clamps are and I should be good to go.

Everyone else:
I need advice on paint now. Keep in mind that I don't want to repaint the entire vehicle because I anticipate having to pull the fenders anyway when I get 15x9 wheels.

Most of them want to sell me some big package deal where they get to to repaint the entire vehicle. To steer me towards that, they tell me that just repainting the front bumper will be nearly 1000 bucks. This is obviously bullshit.

Any techniques for dealing with paint shops so they don't charge me an arm and a leg for a simple sand and repaint on a small part of the car.
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:17 PM   #39
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"And if you aren't supposed to join the two together, why does it look like they are joined on half the pictures on their website? I just want the same level of pretty they achieved for their cars. Why have an ugly hack job when I can do things right and get the same functionality? "

their pictures look good cause they are bad pictures.

you asked for the proper way to do it instead of an ugly hack job and that is what I outlined for you. fiberglass parts are never perfect because they warp when they cure,it's the nature of the beast. unless they use realy expensive epoxy resin and an autoclave.

do it nice or do it twice. just trying to help.
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:43 PM   #40
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Ok, thanks for the advice. I didn't mean to be insulting. I was mainly just confused about what you were trying to convey to me.

I've pretty much settled on a fastening solution and I think it addresses most of the fitment problems as well. The bumper is back on the car with the clamps still holding the air dam in place.

I still have to mount all the hardware but all the questions I have now related to getting it painted.
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