miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something)
02-02-2016, 03:11 PM
#2162
If there is another dealer out there that wants to begin selling tuning kits to consumers, that's their call. I have seen enough skullduggery in this niche of the automotive aftermarket to make me wary of releasing anything before it's "final".
WRT to open sourcing, EcuTek has been hacked and copied often enough that I understand and support their cautious approach. You hate it, but it isn't your IP. When it is your IP and you have thousands of hours and dollars tied up in it, your attitude might change a bit. Maybe not but it's all peanut gallery opinions until it is your personal mortgage payment and kids tuition is on the line.
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02-02-2016, 03:18 PM
#2163
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I looked into options for my Mazda2 when I first bought it, and there were a few vendors (including Dynotronics).
I just don't know which is the scarier scenario:
1. Tuners refusing to give any details and just speak in platitudes (it's better!) while you pay them $600 and send your factory ECU in the mail for weeks at a time, or
2. The people/customers who are more than willing to blindly send in their ECUs to a stranger on the internet
I just don't know which is the scarier scenario:
1. Tuners refusing to give any details and just speak in platitudes (it's better!) while you pay them $600 and send your factory ECU in the mail for weeks at a time, or
2. The people/customers who are more than willing to blindly send in their ECUs to a stranger on the internet
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02-02-2016, 04:17 PM
#2164
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I looked into options for my Mazda2 when I first bought it, and there were a few vendors (including Dynotronics).
I just don't know which is the scarier scenario:
1. Tuners refusing to give any details and just speak in platitudes (it's better!) while you pay them $600 and send your factory ECU in the mail for weeks at a time, or
2. The people/customers who are more than willing to blindly send in their ECUs to a stranger on the internet
I just don't know which is the scarier scenario:
1. Tuners refusing to give any details and just speak in platitudes (it's better!) while you pay them $600 and send your factory ECU in the mail for weeks at a time, or
2. The people/customers who are more than willing to blindly send in their ECUs to a stranger on the internet
When I get a ND in the next few years, I am fully planning on mocking up a turbo setup. If I ever run it will more be determined by what the engine tuning options are at that point in time.
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02-02-2016, 04:25 PM
#2165
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Just for the record, not all tuners do this.
Open Flash Tablet is an example (and what I ran on my NC, then unmarried it, and use it on my BRZ).
You buy the hardware, and he releases the tunes for free and they are completely editable with a ton of online support on how to many things (for instance tweak the fuel/timing tables to eliminate cold start warmup when running a catless exhaust, or how to tweak the tables to get E85 to start better in cooler temps).
He constantly adds new features and he never charges for updates, only if you want to log pulls and have him remote tuning, and that is even pretty reasonable.
But the 91 and E85 tune logs looked pretty damn good so I saw no reason to mess with remote tuning.
Open Flash Tablet is an example (and what I ran on my NC, then unmarried it, and use it on my BRZ).
You buy the hardware, and he releases the tunes for free and they are completely editable with a ton of online support on how to many things (for instance tweak the fuel/timing tables to eliminate cold start warmup when running a catless exhaust, or how to tweak the tables to get E85 to start better in cooler temps).
He constantly adds new features and he never charges for updates, only if you want to log pulls and have him remote tuning, and that is even pretty reasonable.
But the 91 and E85 tune logs looked pretty damn good so I saw no reason to mess with remote tuning.
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02-02-2016, 04:37 PM
#2166
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The Mazda2 Dynotronics is a bit on the extreme side of things example wise, but he posted on Mazdas247 offering tuning options. The process was that you paid him, then mailed your ECU to a dude in Italy, and in 2-3 weeks you'd have your ECU back. All of the information was "It's problem free! You can rev higher! More power!" and there's not exactly a glut of information out there on the L series MZR motor, especially the 1.5L.
Right now for the ND, I'd be considerably more comfortable with a complete standalone like the Bosch unit for the Cup Car or something analogous to a Megasquirt versus re-flashing the ROM on the ECU that came with the car. I know that it'll definitely improve over time as people break and figure out the software better, but I'd rather not pay to be a beta tester for something that may or may not have a good failure state.
Right now for the ND, I'd be considerably more comfortable with a complete standalone like the Bosch unit for the Cup Car or something analogous to a Megasquirt versus re-flashing the ROM on the ECU that came with the car. I know that it'll definitely improve over time as people break and figure out the software better, but I'd rather not pay to be a beta tester for something that may or may not have a good failure state.
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02-02-2016, 05:13 PM
#2167
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As these ECUs get more intricate and handle more variables at all times, I really wonder if it will reach a point where they all have the same OS, or maybe there are 2 or 3 of them bouncing around. Much like PCs right now.
Result is that aftermarket products will become more universal as a result of all the complexity rather than in spite of it. Basically people like us buy firmware and plug it in, interface with it and do your thing. And the real difference between the kit you buy for a Mustang and an ND and a GTR is in the pre-loaded maps. Because they are all running the equivalent if a MAC OS or Linux or whatever. The wiring, sensors, ignition parts, and even fueling hardware is getting so good that it will all just be left in place. Maybe piggy-back amp circuits with solid-state relays for big bad HPFPs and such.
In other words, its does not really matter much if you have a Dell or an HP or a Gateway or an Asus, your software purchases depend on the OS loaded onto the machine rather than the machine itself.
Given that everything in major markets will be DI, VVT, traction control, ABS, WB02, sequential spark, and probably also utilize integrated GPS functions, I would not be surprised to this happen. I bet plenty of automakers would jump at the chance to simply run a management setup that they can buy from Bosch or whomever rather than deal with paying programmers who need to interface with engineers and then talk to electronics suppliers or an ecu builder, then take the ECU they have designed and built and test and revise.
Result is that aftermarket products will become more universal as a result of all the complexity rather than in spite of it. Basically people like us buy firmware and plug it in, interface with it and do your thing. And the real difference between the kit you buy for a Mustang and an ND and a GTR is in the pre-loaded maps. Because they are all running the equivalent if a MAC OS or Linux or whatever. The wiring, sensors, ignition parts, and even fueling hardware is getting so good that it will all just be left in place. Maybe piggy-back amp circuits with solid-state relays for big bad HPFPs and such.
In other words, its does not really matter much if you have a Dell or an HP or a Gateway or an Asus, your software purchases depend on the OS loaded onto the machine rather than the machine itself.
Given that everything in major markets will be DI, VVT, traction control, ABS, WB02, sequential spark, and probably also utilize integrated GPS functions, I would not be surprised to this happen. I bet plenty of automakers would jump at the chance to simply run a management setup that they can buy from Bosch or whomever rather than deal with paying programmers who need to interface with engineers and then talk to electronics suppliers or an ecu builder, then take the ECU they have designed and built and test and revise.
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02-02-2016, 06:20 PM
#2168
It's already heading that way with the German cars. Bosch convened a meeting with VW, Merc, and BMW a couple years back to compel them to standardize their logic for ECMs and sensors. Bosch saw too much growth in their own investment to support too many discreet OEM requirements for the equipment, and wanted to standardize things to increase efficiency and reduce costs for development and production. Don't be too surprised if a similar meeting hasn't already happened between Denso and the Japanese OEMs.
Regarding the plausability of standardized ECU logic between an Aveo and a GT-R in the future, I don't know that it will ever get that far. There's a lot of proprietary info in the software that makes these things tick, and I think the big automakers are going to be reluctant to toss all of the prior investments they've made in their respective "way of doing things" to share it with all of their competitors. To put it another way, why does an iPhone or Galaxy S cost $600 when there's only $50 worth of components in it?
Regarding the plausability of standardized ECU logic between an Aveo and a GT-R in the future, I don't know that it will ever get that far. There's a lot of proprietary info in the software that makes these things tick, and I think the big automakers are going to be reluctant to toss all of the prior investments they've made in their respective "way of doing things" to share it with all of their competitors. To put it another way, why does an iPhone or Galaxy S cost $600 when there's only $50 worth of components in it?
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02-02-2016, 07:02 PM
#2169
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I just hope that we can still access OEM ECUs in the future. There were rumblings about automakers wanting to criminalize tinkering by invoking the DMCA and things will only get harder if tuners have to go underground (and perhaps even risk a prison sentence).
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02-02-2016, 08:18 PM
#2170
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It appears to be The Right Thing™.
Standalone, but connectable to a laptop. Internal logging. Kinda wish it offered realtime tuning (edit maps while the engine is running) and fuel autotune, but I assume that batch download is a limitation of the host ECU, not the tuning tool. (Feels like we're taking a step backwards there...)
I must research this further. Unsure if the software offers a MLV-like offline autotune based on differential log analysis.
Does the ND come stock with a wideband EGO sensor?
Of course, the same used to be true for cell phones and wristwatches. Nowadays they all run OSes between the application and the silicon. Hell, the audio mixing consoles I used to design and install went from being programmed in assembly to running Windows CE and coded in J# by the time I left that business.
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02-02-2016, 08:22 PM
#2171
I posit the following while self-consciously attempting not to be a Luddite:
There appears to have been something of a paradigm shift of late.
Once a certain level of sophistication is achieved in OEM designs, the tendency seems to be towards re-mapping of the stock ECU, rather than installing an aftermarket unit. This is reflective both upon the complexity of dealing with concepts such as direct injection, as well as an unwillingness to assume the liability associated with controlling electronic throttles and power steering, and is exacerbated as systems such as ABS / traction control / stability control are increasingly integrated into the main ECU rather than discrete and mostly independent sub-modules. At the same time, the increasing use of plug-in OBDII emissions testing applies a practical constraint to wholesale replacement of ECUs for street cars.
I have no problem with this in principle. Some vehicles, such as the Subaru, have rich and inexpensive (if not free) software packages available which enable the end-user to access important maps within the stock control system.
This has not historically been the case within the Mazda community.
Regardless of generation, we seem to be stuck with tune-by-mail companies unwilling to provide the end user with the hardware and software tools necessary to interactively tune the engine while on the dyno. And while I'll admit that the "we'll sell you our proprietary and non-remappable tune for a large sum of money" business model has apparently proven to be a lucrative one, I would think that being the only company selling the tools needed to enable the end-user to tune their own ECU would be an even more lucrative one. And yet here we we are, ten years since the release of the NC, and still nothing.
I'm not OK with that.
There appears to have been something of a paradigm shift of late.
Once a certain level of sophistication is achieved in OEM designs, the tendency seems to be towards re-mapping of the stock ECU, rather than installing an aftermarket unit. This is reflective both upon the complexity of dealing with concepts such as direct injection, as well as an unwillingness to assume the liability associated with controlling electronic throttles and power steering, and is exacerbated as systems such as ABS / traction control / stability control are increasingly integrated into the main ECU rather than discrete and mostly independent sub-modules. At the same time, the increasing use of plug-in OBDII emissions testing applies a practical constraint to wholesale replacement of ECUs for street cars.
I have no problem with this in principle. Some vehicles, such as the Subaru, have rich and inexpensive (if not free) software packages available which enable the end-user to access important maps within the stock control system.
This has not historically been the case within the Mazda community.
Regardless of generation, we seem to be stuck with tune-by-mail companies unwilling to provide the end user with the hardware and software tools necessary to interactively tune the engine while on the dyno. And while I'll admit that the "we'll sell you our proprietary and non-remappable tune for a large sum of money" business model has apparently proven to be a lucrative one, I would think that being the only company selling the tools needed to enable the end-user to tune their own ECU would be an even more lucrative one. And yet here we we are, ten years since the release of the NC, and still nothing.
I'm not OK with that.
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02-02-2016, 08:26 PM
#2172
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I get it. OBD-II plugin sucks, but it's the way the world works now and we have to deal with that. The OpenFlashTablet thing looks promising. Until that, I'd not seen any reasonably open tuning platforms for the Mazda, much unlike the situation in the land of milk and honey inhabited by Subaru owners of questionable sexuality and gender-identity.
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02-02-2016, 09:01 PM
#2174
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I was unaware of this product.
It appears to be The Right Thing™.
Standalone, but connectable to a laptop. Internal logging. Kinda wish it offered realtime tuning (edit maps while the engine is running) and fuel autotune, but I assume that batch download is a limitation of the host ECU, not the tuning tool. (Feels like we're taking a step backwards there...)
I must research this further. Unsure if the software offers a MLV-like offline autotune based on differential log analysis.
Does the ND come stock with a wideband EGO sensor?
The BRZ has a stock wideband O2, and constantly uses the STFT to tinker with LTFT.
So when making a tune change, it usually takes around a 1/4 of gas with widely varied inputs for the stock ECU to get it really dialed in.
In other words, fill up tank, change tune. Now drive slowly around town varying throttle input in the lower RPMs (no slamming the throttle open), as you watch the LTFT (Long Term Fuel Trim) start to stabilize around +/- 3-5%, you can start doing some mid-throttle pulls from 3000-5500, as those stabilize, then you can start doing your full throttle pulls.
Just watch for detonation and such, then you're good.
If you'd like some more info on the OFT and the user adjustable tune stuff, here is a great primer thread about what it can do.
OFT Tune Usefull Information and Tweaks - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB
Also a good thread, about how you can scale the MAF, etc.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...01&postcount=1
Last edited by z31maniac; 02-02-2016 at 09:11 PM.
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02-02-2016, 09:33 PM
#2175
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Not sure if this is still the case (technology may have evolved in my abence), but none of the ECUs I'm familiar with run an OS in the sense that we think of it. Like many other types of embedded systems which lack a complex user interface, ECU software tends to be compiled directly to the target hardware, and run on the "bare metal" as it were, much like microwave ovens, laser printers, Megasquirts, and that sort of thing.
The megasquirt software is pretty primitive, yes. It has some tiny vestiges of OS services in it, but mostly it looks like a direct port of some assembler to C.
I haven't looked at the code for any OEM ECU, but I'd be very surprised if they're not using a real-time OS. Modern RTOSes often have a unix-like kernel and provide a posix interface. Older ones would compile everything into a single image that's loaded onto the hardware and runs everything in kernel mode, but even they have some amount of general operating system services provided to the code that gets the actual work done. Interrupt services, message queues, memory management, a filesystem for accessing non-volatile storage, networking protocol stacks, or schedulers for tasks.
A lot of people think "OS" means a windowing system and a web browser, but that's definitely not the case.
--Ian
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02-02-2016, 09:49 PM
#2176
The latter. More than any liability concerns, I just won't offer a tune unless its pretty. TBH, I'm not really focused on delivering a tune. Not my business model. I ordered the kit so I can tune my car and a few other local guinea pigs. If that results in something worthwhile to the community, then I'll market a tune. More likely though, I'll keep my stuff proprietary and let the shops with a mail-a-tune business model do their thing.
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02-04-2016, 04:59 PM
#2177
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Crarrs, Leafy, Codrus, Joe, Z31, others, thanks for taking my semi-BS supposition and turning it in something educational for me. I just learned stuff, or at least learned what to suspect about stuff I should learn about. Nifty.
LTFTs. Ugh. I recall those. I recall sitting there ******* with injector dwell-time settings trying to get them to stay within 5% so that I could just tune my fuel map in peace, and then actually attempt something like a good spark map. God most 90's ECUs suck.
LTFTs. Ugh. I recall those. I recall sitting there ******* with injector dwell-time settings trying to get them to stay within 5% so that I could just tune my fuel map in peace, and then actually attempt something like a good spark map. God most 90's ECUs suck.
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