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Old 04-07-2008, 11:01 PM   #1
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Default Noob question... how much to a low 12 second miata?

I have been out of the hobby for a couple years (and I am a classic Mopar guy) so I don't know the general rule of thumb when it comes to Miatas.

Basically this whole story started when I lost my uncle awhile back. He had a 94'ish 5.0 liter Miata, and before that it was supercharged - and before that he had a gumball blue stock miata.

There was a brief time period where it looked like my parents were going to be buying the 5.0 Miata to keep it in the family - with me as caretaker since I am the most mechanically inclined.

In that several weeks, I started to realize that buying a used 95'ish Miata as a fun summer car would be a good option rather than my plans on replacing my old 66' Plymouth Belvedere convertible (lost in a trailer accident a couple years back).

You see, turns out even old rusted up Mopars are made of gold. Who woulda thunk it!

So, since I cannot afford to start on an old Mopar (and it turns out I have a thing for twisties) I decided to do my "minds eye" buildup of said Miata.

I have driven many fast cars. I do not need nor want a 9 second Miata. However, in my experience a car that can do mid to low 12 second 1/4 mile passes is plenty darn quick enough. Just to satisfy my curiosity - what approximate power level would you need to make at the rear wheels to move a stock weight and geared Miata to those speeds?

I will ask more questions as we go, but this is my first... I appreciate your understanding - I know how funny it is to see noobs ask questions like this - but since I am new, I don't quite understand how to get the information I am looking for.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:06 PM   #2
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:11 PM   #3
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Rock on! - why couldn't I find that?

(edit: That timeslip database seems to have only a few entries)
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:13 PM   #4
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Power isnt going to be the problem. Traction is.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Power isnt going to be the problem. Traction is.
Yeah - and once things start hooking - things start breaking. (at least from experience)

Still though - to get to that point, am I looking at 300+ hp? (provided I can hook?) Or is it less?

I see that the FM II is somewhere around 270hp... That in my head is my first (and perhaps last) goal - depending on how it drives.

When I drove the miata when it was supercharged, I remember being underwhelmed... (I am guessing it was only the m45 though, based on conversations I had with my uncle years ago...)

ps- remember I am coming from big cars where anything less than 300hp is considered weak. Its strange for me to consider 270hp an end goal - but its very possible that I will find complete bliss at that power level.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:27 PM   #6
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300whp will put you in the 12's with poor traction. You could likely see low 12's with that power if you had a 1.8 60' or so. Basically it's expensive to build a miata into a kick *** 1/4 car. The drive train doesn't like it.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
300whp will put you in the 12's with poor traction. You could likely see low 12's with that power if you had a 1.8 60' or so. Basically it's expensive to build a miata into a kick *** 1/4 car. The drive train doesn't like it.
Bam - thats what I wanted to know. I know that once you start building for 1/4 mile you loose what makes the car special - so I don't want to overdo it.

There was a Dodge Viper I saw at a show that ditched its independent rear suspension in favor of a solid axle. That along with a number of other improvements made the car very very fast in the 1/4 - but to me destroyed what made the Viper so great.

Another example - there was a car done by Mopar Action magazine a number of years back. I believe it was a 1967 Dodge Dart 4 door. They called it the 'Flying Brick.' It was built to run in the "One Lap of America" race. It could tick off low 12's in the quarter and run 170mph down the backstretch at Watkins Glen.

Ideally - I want a car that can race (maybe after some work, compete) at "One Lap." Good compromise between straight line and twisty track.

I just want a basic flightpath that starts me off with a daily driver, and minimizes re-buying parts along the way there.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:58 PM   #8
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well, the begi kits are great. I just installed the begi s1 and its great. You can go with the gt2860rs and that will get you to 300.
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...bosystems.html

You are probably going to wait a month or more for your kit from them but the quality is impeccable. As well as the support. I couldnt ask for a better kit. Things like divorced gasses downpipe, coolant reroute, and ceramic coating are what make the kit great. All the welds are amazing and i think that it is a good base to any build. However, you can save some money by going the diy route.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:59 PM   #9
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aound 300 whp, a rx7 clutch diff set tight, some drag tires, and launch control with antilag should do the trick!
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:25 AM   #10
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Dont go DIY route. I speak from experience, if you have the money buy a kit. Peace of mind is priceless.

Heres my rendition of the DIY route in a mastercard style commercial.

Endlessly reading forum posts for information... 6 months of your life
Obtaining parts... 1 - 3 months of your life
Hoping that all the parts you bought work together... +15 points of blood pressure
Being screwed over twice on downpipes... 500 dollars in the hole
Knowing that you could have saved all of this health and aggravation by spending money and getting a kit... PRICELESS
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Dont go DIY route. I speak from experience, if you have the money buy a kit. Peace of mind is priceless.

Heres my rendition of the DIY route in a mastercard style commercial.

Endlessly reading forum posts for information... 6 months of your life
Obtaining parts... 1 - 3 months of your life
Hoping that all the parts you bought work together... +15 points of blood pressure
Being screwed over twice on downpipes... 500 dollars in the hole
Knowing that you could have saved all of this health and aggravation by spending money and getting a kit... PRICELESS
Haha and there you hear it from the other side. If you go with a kit, all you have to REALLY worry about is whether you remembered to tighten EVERYTHING down.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Dont go DIY route. I speak from experience, if you have the money buy a kit. Peace of mind is priceless.
Sam, I'd have to disagree with you. I find the research, bargain hunting, and getting dirty to be half the fun. Plus I am fully confident that the support here and general common sense will allow most people to DIY turbo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Being screwed over twice on downpipes... 500 dollars in the hole
You could have easily bought one of my two downpipes I was selling and had zero headaches.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:29 AM   #13
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I will be going the DIY turbo route when I eventually build my B block (440 crank in a 400 block) 451 stroker. I read Maximum Boost cover to cover years ago and have notebooks full of notes for that motor. I just can't afford both the car it will have to go into and the motor + turbo stuff.

For the Miata I will likely stick with kits.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:06 AM   #14
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Oh if only all the forum-n00bs were this knowledgeable and well rounded!

Looks like you'll be on the right path in no time. There are other tricks that can help out, such as swapping the rear gear to a 3.63 to make 1st gear a little easier and keep shifting to a minimum...and with 300rwhp, those long gears will be well used.

Any particular year model Miata in mind? There are a few things to consider...
If you're looking for the lightest Miata, then look at a 90-91. There is only one big downside to the 1.6 cars (90-93).... the 6" ring/pinion. The 94-97 had a much stronger diff. from the factory (7" r/p). But a 1.8 diff. bolts straight up. If weight isn't as big of a concern, start with a 94-97 b-pkg car. It will have a decent LSD to start you off, the bigger 1.8 motor, bigger brakes and more chassis bracing (which is well worth the "extra" weight). There are a lot of other things to consider, but those few things should help you from the get-go.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogz View Post
For the Miata I will likely stick with kits.

Then you'll you'll wanna looking to both Flyin' Miata and Bell Engineering and determine which kit would be best for you.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:32 AM   #16
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Cogz, you have to fill us in on that name...

Your goals certainly aren't impossible nor unreasonable. I'd still encourage you to go the DIY route as you can save a lot of money by fabricating your own parts, and it sounds like you are a guy that can do that considering where you come from. The 94/95 Miata is a great start, as doppelganger pointed out the bigger motor, brakes, diff. of the 94+ miatas.

i think you could reach your goal and still have a very fun daily or track car. You need to consider what you have to before hand to reach your goal, how good of a tuner are you, do you have anyone local to you (fill in your location in your profile). EMS is going to be your key either which route you take, kit or DIY.

Good luck, you have a lot of very smart guys here (not me) that will be able to help you out a great deal if you just ask the right questions.

Cheers,
Dan
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
Any particular year model Miata in mind? There are a few things to consider...
I want to start out with a 94/95 car because of the brakes, motor etc like you mentioned. I dare not go newer because of emissions requirements here in Illinois. Recently they put out a statement saying that 95 and older cars that passed emissions last time through would no longer need to be tested. This allows me to use a full EMS and not have to worry about OBD or any of that trash. (I am all for protecting the environment, I just want to do it according to results, not wither or not I have a silly plug under my dash or not)

Thanks for the compliments btw. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy - or maybe I just need to shave.
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:38 PM   #18
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I'd still encourage you to go the DIY route as you can save a lot of money by fabricating your own parts, and it sounds like you are a guy that can do that considering where you come from.
Well, maybe things are different on the Miata side (actually, I know they are). To DIY on an old mopar means researching intake manifolds, having them machined (to accept injector bungs), welding in injector bungs, machining fuel rails, and then you get the pleasure of fabricating your own turbo exhaust manifold and figuring out how to fit it all under the hood and cool it.

With the Miata, all of that work has been done before - and in some cases its DIY by with the help of VISA and UPS. I am just afraid of having to fab my own parts. I don't have the money nor the time to get and learn TIG to the point where I am satisfied with my fabrication skills.

For an example of a junkyard tech twin turbo 440.

I know the dude who did it. (through another forum)
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Old 04-08-2008, 03:57 PM   #19
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If you really want to build a miata for that horsepower and 1/4 track it often your going to have drive train issues.

There are a few ways around that,

A) just keep swapping in stock parts when they break

B)tranny swap to something stronger.
here is a link to a member who doing the Rx7 Turbo2 swap

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19010


As for ECU options most members here are a little bias to Megasquirts but for the 94/95 you can get the MSPNP from DIY and not have to worry about anything other then tuning for the ECU and have a full standalone that can do the same as almost any bigger more costly ECU. BTW MSPNP rounds around 725 without WB.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:18 PM   #20
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Yeah, when I start moving up towards 300'ish HP I would likely swap to a beefed up 5 speed or perhaps 6 speed.

However, in my experience more gears don't always mean better.

At this point though, the first step I need to make is to be sure I can comfortably drive a Miata. At 5'11" and 240lbs, I know I need to loose some weight in the long term. I sat in a 2008 Miata in a dealership and barely fit in the drivers side of the passenger compartment. (I couldn't sit on the passenger side comfortably)

If I remember, early Miatas had bigger passenger compartments correct?
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