Pulled my head today. (Think I have a problem) Pics inside - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 09-05-2008, 03:31 PM   #61
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You are budgeting 0 money for machine work. I spent $1200 in machine work on the motor that brgracer now has. Granted I had a lot done.
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:32 PM   #62
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Stop bitching and start building...
I think the major differences in $$ are due to labor...
I doubt many people get an engine built for $300, or even a head for $130...
Prob more like $800+ and $200+, which when added to your #'s = the $2k-2.5k range...
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:36 PM   #63
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Phil, if you're touching something, then replace it!
I can sort of buy the argument you present about the water pump, but how could you not replace the oil pump that you
-must remove anyway
-can't easily access with engine in car
-will loose your motor, and all the time and money you put into it if it fails.

Remember, I sell parts, and I know what parts people commonly need. One of those is OIL PUMPS!

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Old 09-05-2008, 03:38 PM   #64
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and thus is why i have an unknown mileage block and a random head....cost me under $300 to get me back on the road
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:46 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
and thus is why i have an unknown mileage block and a random head....cost me under $300 to get me back on the road
....plus a new turbine...
....plus a new shell...
....plus new diff seals...

....probably missing some other occasions as well
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:47 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
You are budgeting 0 money for machine work. I spent $1200 in machine work on the motor that brgracer now has. Granted I had a lot done.
What other machine work is needed besides honing or boring and resurfacing if needed? My friend says he can do everything needed for the $300.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Phil, if you're touching something, then replace it!
I can sort of buy the argument you present about the water pump, but how could you not replace the oil pump that you
-must remove anyway
-can't easily access with engine in car
-will loose your motor, and all the time and money you put into it if it fails.

Remember, I sell parts, and I know what parts people commonly need. One of those is OIL PUMPS!

Ben
I agree. see my revised list. I included a new wp/tb and Oil pump

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
and thus is why i have an unknown mileage block and a random head....cost me under $300 to get me back on the road
I know i could go that route, or just slap mine back together. But if im gonna pull a motor id much rather replace it with one that I am 100% sure is good and can take more abuse. Im not really comfortable with tryin my luck on a junk yard engine.

If I can infact get this done for $1600 ish why not?
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 View Post
....plus a new turbine...
....plus a new shell...
....plus new diff seals...

....probably missing some other occasions as well

my diff seals i forgot to replace and they are leaking like crazy. and i was dumb not ot replace the water pump from the block because when i filled it up it leaked....but all i did was put my old water pump back on it with a new gasket
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Old 09-05-2008, 04:37 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by levnubhin View Post
Im just using that bearing kit as an example for pricing. My friend who would build it would get the correct bearings and at a better price.

I already have all the gaskets and seals.

So, adding the water pump/tb kit and oil pump $200
Belfab rod and piston combo $805
Labor from a friend $300
All new bearings $100-$150 ish
Refresh my spare head $130


Puts me between $1550 and $1600 and I would keep a couple hundred on the side for just in case.

Anything else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by levnubhin View Post
What other machine work is needed besides honing or boring and resurfacing if needed? My friend says he can do everything needed for the $300.



I agree. see my revised list. I included a new wp/tb and Oil pump



I know i could go that route, or just slap mine back together. But if im gonna pull a motor id much rather replace it with one that I am 100% sure is good and can take more abuse. Im not really comfortable with tryin my luck on a junk yard engine.

If I can infact get this done for $1600 ish why not?
I challenge you to consider the following:

Why spend 1600 "refreshing" a motor instead of going all out and rebuilding it properly?


What is the difference between a "refreshed" motor and a used 1.6L with <5% leakdown with a new TB/WP/OP? (besides the huge price diff)


Why spend 130 "refreshing" the head when you could spend 300-400 and fully rebuild it to factory spec? Cause if the refreshed head ever fails, the labor, fluids, and gasket cost alone associated with repairing it (neglecting the cost of fixing it) will add up to more than the difference in price of a rebuild and a refresh.



Why are you afraid of used motors? I'm willing to BET MONEY Mazda builds a better (more reliable) 4 cylinder from the factory than your friend will do.
Why spend 1600 refreshing a motor when you have modest power goals that are commonly done with good stock engines?

I paid $88.00 for my spare 1.8 longblock w/88K miles I have mounted on my engine stand in my garage. That was with me pulling the engine though so no labor cost associated with that number. It has the MBSP too. Complete longblock in excellent condition. If I consider the cost of a good used engine vs. the cost of building a refreshed, or mild build, or fully rebuilt motor, it's smarter for me to buy a good used one. It would be cheaper for me to just keep 5 spare motors on engine stands in my garage than to fully build a single 1.8. I feel better about beating on my car knowing I have a good spare.

IMO, you would be misguided (for lack of a better word) to not get a good used 1.6 and drop it in. IE, not a $900 one, but one for say 200 and U pull it. Spend another 300 on a TB/WP and run it. There's usually 4-5 decent BP 1.8's in our local yard, though most are 100-120K. But mileage isn't everything. The car my 1.8 came from was totaled in a car accident. Looked like a tank ran over the back of the car. But the motor was perfect. Car belonged to a nurse at the local hospital. Clean car till it was wrecked.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:15 PM   #69
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The difference between a "refreshed" motor and a used one is everything in it wil be brand new

How is a motor not built properly if you are replacing rods, pistons, all bearings, oil pump and performing the appropiate machine work.

You say not to be afraid of a used motor, then why rebuild a good head instead of just refreshing it?

Im just tryin to learn here, but you keep telling me that what im looking to do is isnt a rebuild. So im asking again, if I replace the rods, all bearings, pistons, and have the machine work done than what else is there to do. If theres more than please tell me so that I know what im looking at.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:28 PM   #70
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I see some merits in pats arguements, but also have some of the same questions as Phil...

The "cheap" way of doing it, buying a used longblock and throwing it in is def an option if cost control is the only goal...I don't see how a used, unknown history motor from a yard is better or even equal to Phil's route. Yes the stock motor will prob handle what he'[s gonna throw at it, but saying its just as good as what he's planning seems like a real stretch...

What I dont understand is the difference between what Phil's doing to his block, VS what a "properly built" block is...? Can you please give some details...as he stated he's rebuilding the whole thing...I'm also very interested to learn...



Same goes for the head, the only thing I can imagine is you mean a brand new valvetrain???

Some info for this newb please...
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:52 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by levnubhin View Post
The difference between a "refreshed" motor and a used one is everything in it wil be brand new

How is a motor not built properly if you are replacing rods, pistons, all bearings, oil pump and performing the appropiate machine work.

You say not to be afraid of a used motor, then why rebuild a good head instead of just refreshing it?

Im just tryin to learn here, but you keep telling me that what im looking to do is isnt a rebuild. So im asking again, if I replace the rods, all bearings, pistons, and have the machine work done than what else is there to do. If theres more than please tell me so that I know what im looking at.
Well, the differences are what's done. Does the machinist turn the crank, polish it, and put new bearings? Or are they all "perfect"? Most shops don't turn a crank unless it's pretty bad. And then there's the argument that a turned crank is inferior to a new one. Is he going to hone the stock cylinders and install factory spec pistons? You know, you want the piston/cylinder wall clearances a bit looser for a turbocharged engine. Too tight and it can seize a piston. Course the type of pistons used will ultimately dictate what clearance should be maintained when he bores the block out. (you were gonna bore it right?).

Look I don't wanna tell you how to build a motor. I personally would not recommend doing it in the first place. IMO you don't need super extra teflon triple gold coated hyperfluxed Kenohypopnumatic forged titanium alloyed extra everything pistons. Stock pistons work fine. Same with rods and everything else.

You should take one thing from your experience as proof that what I'm about to say is correct: It's not power that breaks engines (usually), it's the tune. In your case, lean AFR's in cruise did a number on your motor. Even if you had a built motor, you do that to it it will break.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:58 PM   #72
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I'm not buying the lean AFR in cruise story. I run lean as **** in cruise and advanced timing. EGTs are not dissimilar to the emissions tune I've flashed in for now to pass the sniff test--and then my laptop battery died and I've been too lazy to take it out of the car to charge it.

When I was lean/advanced, I was running 30+ mpg. At stoich and slightly reduced timing, EGT is about the same but economy is down ~25 mpg.
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:04 PM   #73
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Yes your right Pat, I know I dont really need to use forged internals, espceially for my power goals. Its just an idea at this point. I have other cars so I dont need to do anything right away. As far as what my guy would do, yes he would do all that you mentioned. Honing or boring if needed. I know the crank should be balanced with heavier rods and pistons. All the bearings would also be replaced. He told me he would only charge me $300 to do whatever labor/machine work my motor needs. Remember this is a friend.

Im also considering the following.

Replacing the damaged piston (for peace of mind)
replacing all the rings
replace all bearings
new oil pump
new water pump
new t belt
and all new seals

With any machine work that is needed I could get this done for $600-$700

Thats still a little more than a junkyard motor but atleast im starting with a motor that I know is good and I wil have peace of mind.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:07 AM   #74
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lol this thread is funny lol..... let the man do what he wants. lets just give him options and let him do what his budjet lets him..... by the way im the engine builder..... seems like people are talking about me and dont even know me...(pat)... ive been building engine for a lil while now, so i think i know what im doing.http://www.ansamotorsports.com/ ferrari race cars, did alms gt2 03,04,grand am rolex gt 05, 06, alms imsa lights prototypes, restore classic race cars, lmp's, gtp's, etc thats my day job and build spec miata engines and fully built engines, during the night i dont sleep. i do race set ups......the whole deal. anyways getting off track, i gave this price to phil cuz hes a local miata owner/friend. and i hate to see his car down...

anyways phil let me know whats the deal, if u wanna do a stocker or mid/built set up. we will make it happ

sorry for the short book and im not trying to hate on anyone. just thought i would put that out there

sebastien
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:40 AM   #75
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and one more thing... (pat) theirs nothing wrong with a used jdm engine.... i have a lot of friend that have done so. but you still gambling that you get a good engine... yea the leak down shows 5% but what tells you that little Japanese guy driving that car change his oil when do. what tells you that the crank journals are not scored due to no or low oil by the previous owner.. what tells you that the oil pump gear are not about to crack due to bad oil filtration from the owner not changing the oil.. i mean i could go on and on. leak down just tells you the compression rings are good and the valves are sitting properly. Ive seen a good leak down and the car smoked like crazy. the oil control rings got stuck do to gunk and carbon. i mean there's so many variables. yea most jdm pass but key word most. i know of people that have got that bad batch... with that said in my preference why take the chance rebuild it! if he wants to put it back to stock or aftermarket you know the condition of everything and everything is new or with in spec..
and if there's mechanical familiar witch is kinda slim but im human **** happens he can bring it back to me...

with all that said again i prefer a rebuild

sorry again for the book
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Old 09-06-2008, 10:57 AM   #76
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:12 AM   #77
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Thanks for chiming in Sebas. I'll let you know next week which way I wanna go.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:16 AM   #78
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Deffinately a good option Ben, but after shipping it will deff be close to 3k. Id rather give the money to my boy Sebas and know that if I ever have any problems I can go right to him.
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:57 AM   #79
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I'm not buying the lean AFR in cruise story. I run lean as **** in cruise and advanced timing. EGTs are not dissimilar to the emissions tune I've flashed in for now to pass the sniff test--and then my laptop battery died and I've been too lazy to take it out of the car to charge it.

When I was lean/advanced, I was running 30+ mpg. At stoich and slightly reduced timing, EGT is about the same but economy is down ~25 mpg.
I'm not really either. I don't know how long it would take you to have a problem if there should be a problem but I ran 16:1 from TN to NY without a hitch. Car's still running like butta too.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:02 PM   #80
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and one more thing... (pat) theirs nothing wrong with a used jdm engine.... i have a lot of friend that have done so. but you still gambling that you get a good engine... yea the leak down shows 5% but what tells you that little Japanese guy driving that car change his oil when do. what tells you that the crank journals are not scored due to no or low oil by the previous owner.. what tells you that the oil pump gear are not about to crack due to bad oil filtration from the owner not changing the oil.. i mean i could go on and on. leak down just tells you the compression rings are good and the valves are sitting properly. Ive seen a good leak down and the car smoked like crazy. the oil control rings got stuck do to gunk and carbon. i mean there's so many variables. yea most jdm pass but key word most. i know of people that have got that bad batch... with that said in my preference why take the chance rebuild it! if he wants to put it back to stock or aftermarket you know the condition of everything and everything is new or with in spec..
and if there's mechanical familiar witch is kinda slim but im human **** happens he can bring it back to me...

with all that said again i prefer a rebuild

sorry again for the book
Well, what tells you the machinist bored the cylinders to the correct size to get the proper clearance for the new forged pistons? How do you know he torqued all the main bearing bolts to spec? I mean I could go on and on.

Kidding. But you see my point? Yeah there's good and bad motors out there. You can't always be 100%. You have be SMART and find a good one. I wasn't talking about importing a motor. I said go to a local U pull it, and get a cheap motor. I bought 3 used engines this summer and all 3 were fine.

First, I look at the car. Why is this car in a junkyard. Is it wrecked? If so was this car totaled out? How many miles? Any oil change stickers on the windshield? Who drove this car? Is it clean inside? Or is this a company car? Is it full of trash? Or does it look like a lawyer drove it? Prior to the wreck, was the car in excellent condition? Or does it have wires hanging down that went to the system it had in the back, and neons under the car, and a 6" exhaust tip welded to the factory exhausts? Did it have other problems that the owner was neglecting to fix prior to the accident that totaled the car? Does the car have any new parts like brakes, shocks, CV joints, etc? New air filter, oil filter, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, or PCV valve? These are indications that the car was maintained.

Then I do is visually inspect the motor. Does it look stock? Did it have a cold air intake on it cause some kid drove this? Does it look like it had work done to it? Does it appear the TB/WP may have been serviced recently? Is the head cleaner than the block and do I see an shiny new head gasket? Does it appear to have recently had a tune up? Has it ever had a tune up? Can I see any new gaskets? Is there 3/4's of a tube worth of permatex on the outside of the valve cover where some dip **** put the valve cover on? etc. Is there any radiator stop leak in the radiator?

If visual checks out I pull the plugs. Are they new? Are they old? Then I read them. The plugs will tell you quite a bit about an engine. For example if one cylinder had a stuck oil control ring, that cylinders spark plug would be very dirty. I measure the gap of each plug and compare that to spec to get an idea of how long they've been in the car.

Then I pull the valve cover. If I see a bunch of sludge and ****, I walk away. If it looks pretty damn clean, I keep looking. I look in the plastic intake tube after where the valve cover breather goes in. Is there a river of oil from excessive blowby? Then the leakdown test is done. If it passes that test, my bet is this is a good motor.

And no that's not a through test by any means. But if I do all that and it checks out fine, odds are you have a good motor. Again if he wants to rebuild, let him. If he were shooting for the sky in the HP category and this was his only daily driver, yeah, he needs a freshly rebuilt motor.
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