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Old 07-26-2012, 03:20 PM   #41
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And is your .010 @ MMC (which I assume is to the respective dowel hole basic dimensions) 'good enough'? I have no idea but I would guess that it is fine. Regardless, if you are doing it on a CNC then the holes will be done in one operation so the positional tolerance will be whatever the machine can hold, well well within that.

You made it seem the laser scan was of the prototype part which was done with basic tools. I can carve something with my hacksaw then laser scan it to make excellent accurate copies of my not-so accurate initial part. My mistake!
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Old 07-26-2012, 04:12 PM   #42
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The crank/ input shaft concentricity spec on most domestic stuff is in the .005" range. That's a mighty close tolerance to hit without some sort of positive alignment device.
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:04 PM   #43
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Hey guys, I just wanted to come in here and clear up some confusion.

I'm helping Pat in designing this part and I was one of the original designers of the SR20 adapter he posted earlier.

The original plate has lasted 3+ years and 550whp without any problems. I think that in itself speaks volumes.

The plate is laser scanned and then we have it CNC cut on a HAAS vertical milling center. As you know the tolerances of the machine are .0001" or better. Since everything is done on a single operation the tolerance is held much tighter than the .010" specified. Even at .010" the position can only vary .005" due to the positional tolerance. On a large part like an adapter plate .005" is nothing. That's half a human hair. Pretty sure the OEM tolerances on a cast block are not this good.

And since we already have the plate and it fit perfectly. Dowel pins lined up and all the bolts are dead on I can say that the part is accurate.

ps. I'm a design engineering with 6+ years of doing work just like this. Solidworks certified as well as Camworks. When Pat asked for this I figured I'd help him out and save him from having to "hacksaw" anything.
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Old 07-26-2012, 05:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vehicular View Post
The crank/ input shaft concentricity spec on most domestic stuff is in the .005" range. That's a mighty close tolerance to hit without some sort of positive alignment device.
That's about what I was told. My tolerance stackup using my Faro Platinum arm to measure both the bellhousing and engine is just under .004", although my math may be wrong on that. I choose to make my T5 adapter on the Matsuura because its more precise than our Haas (actually it's because that machine was available and I want to sound smart with my 10+ years of noSolidworks certification).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarstan View Post
Hey guys, I just wanted to come in here and clear up some confusion.

I'm helping Pat in designing this part and I was one of the original designers of the SR20 adapter he posted earlier.

The original plate has lasted 3+ years and 550whp without any problems. I think that in itself speaks volumes.
sure does. Real world experience matters most IMHO.

Quote:
The plate is laser scanned and then we have it CNC cut on a HAAS vertical milling center. As you know the tolerances of the machine are .0001" or better. Since everything is done on a single operation the tolerance is held much tighter than the .010" specified. Even at .010" the position can only vary .005" due to the positional tolerance. On a large part like an adapter plate .005" is nothing. That's half a human hair. Pretty sure the OEM tolerances on a cast block are not this good.
I get the whole accuracy claim from scanning to finished product. No question there.


Quote:
And since we already have the plate and it fit perfectly. Dowel pins lined up and all the bolts are dead on I can say that the part is accurate.

ps. I'm a design engineering with 6+ years of doing work just like this. Solidworks certified as well as Camworks. When Pat asked for this I figured I'd help him out and save him from having to "hacksaw" anything.
I am still not warm n fuzzy on how you are claiming the .010 tolerance (less than .004" in any direction from basic dimension) between transmission and crank cenerlines from the prototype part. Just a guess here, but I would say that before marking the dowel/bolt holes, one could move the transmission around more than .005" on a blank plate with the input shaft still located on the pilot. .005" isn't much, like half the size of a human hair they say.

Maybe by chance/skill you were more accurate with the transfer punches when you made your 550whp adapter.

I don't mean to ---- on your thread, just playing devil's advocate. We need parts like this. The original 5 speed sucks, 6 speed is expensive and I don't like the ratios, etc.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:13 PM   #45
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The transfer is simple.

We scan the input shaft on both so we know the location.

Line it up in CAD and BOOM. Everything is on center.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #46
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All this discussion about accuracy is what I was getting at when I asked about the alignment of the input shaft and crankshaft.

When I made my adapter plate, I didn't have access to a laser scanner or CMM. What I ended up doing is use the DRO on a cnc (Matsuura too) to plot all the holes and then CAD'ed everything out that way. I made sure to get the input shaft and dowel pins exact. Took a while to find the centers of all the hole locations, but the end result fit perfectly.

--Ferdi
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:36 AM   #47
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Pictures of the finished prototype:





And our smoking hot model:

Attached Thumbnails
TII Transmission Adapter plate-fcbuild07-26001.jpg   TII Transmission Adapter plate-fcbuild07-26003.jpg   TII Transmission Adapter plate-fcbuild07-26002.jpg  
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:42 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarstan View Post
The transfer is simple.

We scan the input shaft on both so we know the location.

Line it up in CAD and BOOM. Everything is on center.
They why even the mention of transfer punches for a prototype part? Why not do the scan in the beginning? Or was the prototype part only intended to mockup heights/thicknesses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftjandra View Post
All this discussion about accuracy is what I was getting at when I asked about the alignment of the input shaft and crankshaft.

When I made my adapter plate, I didn't have access to a laser scanner or CMM. What I ended up doing is use the DRO on a cnc (Matsuura too) to plot all the holes and then CAD'ed everything out that way. I made sure to get the input shaft and dowel pins exact. Took a while to find the centers of all the hole locations, but the end result fit perfectly.

--Ferdi
That sounds slick to me

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Originally Posted by theshdwconspracy View Post
Pictures of the finished prototype:



And our smoking hot model:
Haha nice!
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:23 AM   #49
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that turned out awesome. i want one
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:52 AM   #50
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came out awesome, did some more test fitting today and put the motor in the car it works RADICAL. ya'll should be jealous!!!!!!!
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:31 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
Price point is in the $400 range, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theshdwconspracy View Post
Yessir

Plate+transmission should be close to what good 6speeds are going for with better gearing and stronger gears!

Differential mount? Transmission mount (crossmember)? New driveshaft? Speed-o cable same as miata?
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:19 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Differential mount? Transmission mount (crossmember)? New driveshaft? Speed-o cable same as miata?
Yeah, all dis. I sure hope this works out...
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Old 07-30-2012, 02:55 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Differential mount? Transmission mount (crossmember)? New driveshaft? Speed-o cable same as miata?

Like i said before, I'm not going to be producing diff/trans mounts for people. You'll have to make it yourself, you need a new driveshaft, speedo cable will plug in to the TII trans.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:20 PM   #54
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But you would like to sell the bellhousing adapter for around $400, which I think is a great price BTW. The material alone should be ~40-50% of that price.

So I'll ask, what are YOU going to do for a differential mount, transmission mount, and driveshaft, even if you don't plan to sell it as a kit? People who are considering your plate may benefit from that info.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:18 AM   #55
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I'll chime in here again.

It's simple enough to fab a pinion mount for the diff. I bent a piece of 5/16" and welded it directly to the subframe. I think it was mentioned, but there are a ton of different "options" a lot of the v8 guys are using to secure the diff, ranging from hacked up ppf mounts, to heim joint linkages, to simple designs like mine. I doubt you'll be able to retain the ppf, but if you figure out a way, more power to you. I haven't missed mine one bit.

Concerning the driveshaft, if you will be retaining the miata diff, just bring the rx7 and the miata shafts down to a driveshaft shop (after measuring the length from the pinion flange to the trans output), and have him chop the ends off, weld the miata one onto the rx7 shaft, and balance them out. Shouldn't cost more than $40.

I covered what needs to be done to swap in an rx7 diff in my build thread, if you want to go that route. It's just one of many ways, but I still feel it's the easiest, and requires the least amount of "custom" parts.

Concerning the wiring on the transmission, when running megasquirt, the only thing that needs to be hooked up is the reverse lights. I left everything else unplugged. I also removed all the rx7 sensors and installed the miata ones. Everything works as expected.

As for the speedo cable, I used the miata cable and just put it on the rx7 speedo gear, it fits right in without issue. It's on the opposite side of the transmission, but there is enough slack to get it over there.

For the rear transmission mount (assuming you'll be ditching the PPF), I flipped the OEM rx7 trans mount 180 degrees, as the exhausts are on opposite sides (rx7 vs miata). From there, just bend up some brackets and weld them to the tunnel. The trans tunnel is double walled, so you can put some good heat into it. The floor boards aren't however.

I think I covered all your questions, but if not let me know.
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:21 PM   #56
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sub'd
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Old 08-22-2012, 03:29 PM   #57
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Question for all of you Mazda transmission experts. My roommate had his Miata's 5 speed rebuilt with "RX-7" gears. I am not sure even he knows which year or model they are from, I just know they are much longer than the stock 5 speed. But are the TII gears significantly bigger than other RX-7 models that they would't fit in the Miata's transmission case? I assume they don't, or you wouldn't be going through with all of this trouble to build an adapter plate.
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:21 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenuge26 View Post
Question for all of you Mazda transmission experts. My roommate had his Miata's 5 speed rebuilt with "RX-7" gears. I am not sure even he knows which year or model they are from, I just know they are much longer than the stock 5 speed. But are the TII gears significantly bigger than other RX-7 models that they would't fit in the Miata's transmission case? I assume they don't, or you wouldn't be going through with all of this trouble to build an adapter plate.
this should get you started: Transmission
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:57 PM   #59
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Sweet, thanks. I just finished reading your build thread, very nice. Now you just need to change the link in your sig to one that works. Try this one: Build thread

And if they get this adapter plate figured out, I will probably use something similar to your bracing if I decide to go with a TII transmission (which I probably will).
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Old 08-23-2012, 12:04 AM   #60
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Don't know how I missed this but damn! Im totally in. I assume all 13b transmissions (well any transmission that has this bellhousing pattern) will work with this plate?
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