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Old 10-09-2009, 11:03 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I am liking the power-steering pump idea, which seemed frivolous at the time.

One option would be to mount it in the stock location, if you have the space, and runs lines back to the trans. It won't be creating much load on the engine as it won't be pumping against a restriction.

Another, and I'm totally serious, would be to mount a driving pulley for it on either the propshaft or the axles. On the propshaft could be done by sliding it over from the transmission side, and securing it with the four bolts that hold the shaft to the diff. On the axles would be similar, assuming you have two-piece axles. This is actually how a lot of big-money guys (like NASCAR) do it.

Or this: Pegasus - Oil/Water Cooler Pump, 12volt 2 gpm
A long time ago I was looking underneath a NASCAR in a parking lot at a promo thing and it had a driveshaft driven diff pump. I was wondering what it was when the crew chief explained it to me and why it was needed. Ahhhhh, OK, cool. NACA ducts in the side windows (behind the driver) fed air to the heat exchanger.

The PS pump is an interesting idea. That could work better for the trans, especially for a T-5 or a T-56, since they use ATF for lubricant. The heat exchanger could easily be mounted in the nose.

But I still like the electric pump idea. Plus it could be controlled with a simple on-off temperature switch (like a radiator fan) and would only pump when it is needed. And, it is easier to install. Plus there are no concerns about drive belt alignment, tensioning, wear, etc.
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Old 10-09-2009, 11:40 PM   #82
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Oh, and one more... the solution to having a complex turbo car that's expensive is not to get a more expensive, more expensive to maintain turbo car.

Trying to put out the flames by pouring gas on them...
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Old 10-10-2009, 10:59 AM   #83
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How long are your stints? Normally for me would be ~20 min on track, 10-20 in paddock, 20 on track etc. With cooldown lap in between. Do you really need the bulletproofness of a nascar?
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:39 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
The ghetto part, or the destroy trans part? The trans relies on the input shaft spinning for some of it's oiling. The input shaft will not spin/not spin at a reasonable speed if the car is coasting along in neutral. Is this a wive's tale? Are you willing to find out?

Okay, back the car onto the dolly instead. What issues other than height would you have?
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:30 PM   #85
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Transmission failure is common when towing, any class A truck has to have the drive line removed before they are towed for this very reason, and that is common knowledge for a truck driver. However some cars are engineered to be towed on a dolly or flat towed, This is why you always see the same types of cars behind RVs because they know that most of the cars miles will be in tow so they get a car that was manufactured to be towed all the time. I dont know about the miata but I wouldnt risk it.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:51 PM   #86
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Screw towing, screw the dolly, screw fear.

Step 1. Drive to the track.

Step 2. Drive on the track.

Step 3. Embarass all the douchers running 100K cars.

Step 4. Get the phone numbers of the douchers wives & girlfriends.

Step 5. Drive home.

Step 6. Start making booty calls.

Built motor? check. 6 spd tranny? check. Good tune? check. Proper suspension? check. Solid brakes? check. The car is good to go. It's likely as reliable on the track as anything else you could run short of an NA Miata.

It's all paranoia and fear. Take your guns, drive to some rock quarry where you can shoot, drink a couple Hamms pounders and shoot the hell out of the guns. You need to get the testosterone levels up and stop paying attention to that little vagina in your head.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:56 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotpsi? View Post
Transmission failure is common when towing, any class A truck has to have the drive line removed before they are towed for this very reason, and that is common knowledge for a truck driver. However some cars are engineered to be towed on a dolly or flat towed, This is why you always see the same types of cars behind RVs because they know that most of the cars miles will be in tow so they get a car that was manufactured to be towed all the time. I dont know about the miata but I wouldnt risk it.
+1

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Originally Posted by fahrvergnugen View Post
Okay, back the car onto the dolly instead. What issues other than height would you have?
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?

I will measure the height of my dolly on Monday when I go back to the shop, and you can put blocks under your rear wheels to replicate the height, and see where that puts you. I spent good bucks on that dolly to tow our fleet trucks (mostly 1/2 tons) when they break down in the field doing service work. My guys won't even tow with it anymore, especially since they've been dragging them backwards. Hard to get the steering to lock dead straight, and not being straight makes it even funkier to tow. They made me buy them a big Warn so that they could yank the trucks onto the big highboy. They would rather tow with that than the dolly, even though the trailer is huge and heavy, and has a very high cg when there is a truck on it. Save your bux for a real small trailer, even one with just two ramps supporting the wheels instead of a full deck.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
The trans relies on the input shaft spinning for some of it's oiling. The input shaft will not spin/not spin at a reasonable speed if the car is coasting along in neutral. Is this a wive's tale? Are you willing to find out?
I've always wondered about this myself, so I did some research. And you're quite right.

Here is the Miata transmission:



The input shaft and mainshaft (at the top) meet between items 1 and 2. When in "fourth gear" (which is actually not a gear at all) the input and output shafts are locked together via the synchro mechanism which is between the main drive gear (1) and 3'rd gear (2).

The main drive gear (1) is locked to the input shaft. The gears on the countershaft (at the bottom) are all locked to the countershaft. The gears on the mainshaft all freewheel unless their particular syncho is engaged, at which point that particular gear is locked to the mainshaft.

If the vehicle is in neutral, and the engine is running with the clutch engaged, then the input shaft is spinning, which causes the countershaft and all of its gear to spin, which cause all of the gears on the mainshaft to freewheel around it.

If the vehicle is in neutral, the engine is off, and the car is moving, then the mainshaft is spinning, however the input shaft is stationary, so the countershaft is stationary, and thus all of the gears are stationary. So the mainshaft is freewheeling inside of its gears.

Trouble is, it looks to me as though the mainshaft is above the oil level. When the front end of the car is up in the air, then the forward half of the mainshaft is almost certainly above the oil level.

Normally, the countershaft (whose gears are at least partially submerged in oil) will always be flinging oil up onto the input shaft and mainshaft so long as the input shaft is turning.

When you're being towed in neutral however, with the mainshaft spinning freely inside the mainshaft gears, the bearings between the mainshaft the gears will be operating with no lubrication.

I can see that being a potential problem.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:03 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
The PS pump is an interesting idea. That could work better for the trans, especially for a T-5 or a T-56, since they use ATF for lubricant. The heat exchanger could easily be mounted in the nose.
Doesn't really matter how thick the tranny oil is, as the pump isn't going to be working against much of a restriction. It's not trying to force the oil through a tiny orifice, just flow it through some hoses and tubes. Probably a good idea to see just how much volume the thing actually moves when turning at speed (a couple of hoses and tubes might turn out to be a tiny orifice, relatively speaking) but I'd bet that it's pretty minimal.


Quote:
But I still like the electric pump idea. Plus it could be controlled with a simple on-off temperature switch (like a radiator fan) and would only pump when it is needed. And, it is easier to install. Plus there are no concerns about drive belt alignment, tensioning, wear, etc.
If it turns out that a P/S pump does not flow too much oil when turning at engine speed, I like it from a simple (Mazda already figured out how to mount it for you), cheap (free) & reliable (who ever heard of a P/S pump failing) standpoint. Leave it mounted to the engine where it normally lives. No fuss, no muss.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:21 PM   #90
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I swear to **** that I will not write another post in this thread, but I got one last question to ask you, Hustler. I see you have countless posts in engine performance and diy turbo, but I swear that I don't see you blathering much in suspension. Is your setup good? Please tell me you have your cross weights within 5-10#. Please tell me you've worked with your alignment.

If we can't keep up with spec miatas on track, there are really only two reasons: 1. we are not committed to our driving 2. our setup is not on par with what they have.

There is no reason why we can't have a better setup as them, since we don't have the restrictive rules package they have. We can get more camber if needed with offset delrin bushings. We can reduce unsprung weight with tubular control arms or lighter wheels. We can introduce more grip with a wider wheel and tire package.

My first track day with this car, I was eaten alive at lime rock by a pair of club rental SMs. I had rs-2s, and cross out over 100#. I have since optimized my package without installing parts by getting a good baseline alignment, getting cross to within 2#, and getting rid of the rear bar. I also installed NT-01s. At my last track day at Monticello long, I was a lot more comfortable and I think faster. There were no SMs around me, so I don't know how I would have fared. But I was hanging with a reasonably driven FC with an LS3, and got the point by from a couple of 911s on a sunday drive. Point is, setup is everything, especially with if you are at power levels above the average SM level, which we all know is low by the rules package they have. Even running off the 'gate, my car has at least 50whp on a decent SM.

This is all assuming you care about speed. If you are not committed to your driving, or can't commit because this is your baby, you may as well twist the boost down, turn the tune down, and 100% assure that you won't have any mechanicals. Even then, you will still have the opportunity to make lap times if you have a great suspension setup.

Good luck, man. Your car is the ****, it needs to be driven. And you are too much fun to have around than to have you desert us for the Evo board.
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:29 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
If I blow this thing up, I have to wait another 6-months to finance the rebuild because my #1 financial priority is retirement.
Then concentrate on wimmen an' wiskey for 6-months before you put the car on the track. Spend the time building an emergency fund for WHEN not if something goes awry.

After you have your safety net, sign up, show up, turn the key and friggin' race the damn thing. - If you are worrying about every potential mishap and remote failure, not only are your lap times giong to suffer but you will also be a risk to the other drivers on the course.

Otherwise, freeze it in carbonite and preserve it for eternity...

- L
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Old 10-10-2009, 02:41 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
If it turns out that a P/S pump does not flow too much oil when turning at engine speed, I like it from a simple (Mazda already figured out how to mount it for you), cheap (free) & reliable (who ever heard of a P/S pump failing) standpoint. Leave it mounted to the engine where it normally lives. No fuss, no muss.
Well I should clarify. Though this is mt.n I must confess I was thinking in terms of the LS1 track car which does not have a PS pump in it. For me it would be easier to just use electric pumps rather than buy and adapt a PS pump.

In a car with a stock block and a manual (or depowered) steering rack that approach could work though, especially since everything is there. Neat idea actually. I wonder if the stock PS pump is self-priming since it is probably above the trans fill level.

Also to clarify further, I do not want anyone to imply from the cooler discussion that I think the Miata NEEDS a trans and/or a diff cooler. There is some general evidence that it may, even for just a 20 minute session. But, like I said, the only way to know for sure is to install an oil temp gauge and hit the track.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:29 PM   #93
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Car was flawless all day, and incredibly fast. It ran with American Iron/CMC cars all day. Only one street car was faster and it was a c6z driven by a seasoned vet.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:58 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
Also to clarify further, I do not want anyone to imply from the cooler discussion that I think the Miata NEEDS a trans and/or a diff cooler.
Of course it does! It's something unique and needlessly complex, which likely adds little to no value, which we can package and sell to CR.net users and people who install ITBs on otherwise unmodified engines!


This original idea on how to part fools from their money is 2009 Joseph Perez, all rights reserved.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:10 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
he has a truck, trailer, and a business that revolves around breaking ****. I'm also poor.
Old saying in racing.. To make a million dollars racing...


START with TEN Million...

You gotta pay to play! When I drag raced my Miata Pro-Street it would cost me thousands a weekend and I had a truck and trailer to tow the car around.

Blowing up stuff was part of the game...

I plan on build a little track toy (Looking for a good shape NA now), but I doubt I will go over 220hp and I plan to make it so I can tow the Miata behind my Subaru WRX using a tow bar and removing the front bumper.

I know how you feel.. I was there about 10 years ago when I was racing Pro.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:23 PM   #96
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On the subject of vehicles that are cheap to buy, cheap to run, and more fun than a barrel of monkeys on crack, a serious question from someone who doesn't know much about trackdays, HDPEs, etc:

Let's say that one were to take a Formula Vee car, add a cooling system and a turbo, and install brakes and tires that don't suck. Would such a vehicle generally be permitted to run with the big boys? Would a class exist into which it could fit at events that have such things as classes? What practical limitations might accompany such an endeavor, apart from the ever-present danger of being run over by an Austin-Healey Sprite?
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:38 PM   #97
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Car was flawless all day, and incredibly fast. It ran with American Iron/CMC cars all day. Only one street car was faster and it was a c6z driven by a seasoned vet.

Well duh! Of course the car was flawless. The only problem is the estrogen between your ears.

Good to hear you quieted your inner bitch and got back to raping and spitting. Wasn't nearly as fun with the Wendy Whiner version of Huster here.
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Old 10-11-2009, 04:54 PM   #98
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Bring extra **** to the track, parts, fluids ect. I have seen some bring extra trannys/motors ect to the track. Yesterday i got my new motor idling in the paddock for the first time ever. It had started prior twice, once to see if it ran and a second time to get it into the trailer. Broke it in on track. I think you should invest your 18k in a truck and trailer and spare parts.

Or just build that super beast/caged NA car you were talking about a while ago. I think your worried about loosing such a nice looking car. I have a hard time with that too, but i just look at it like its going to happen. **** will/does break and will need to be replaced. **** my car was sitting for 6 months and i had to look at it everyday till this weekend. Its all fun from here.
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Old 10-11-2009, 05:30 PM   #99
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I skimmed a bit so I hope I'm not repeating what someone already said, but you CANNOT tow a miata on a dolly with the the rear wheels up. The weight of the engine acts like a pendulum and will sway like crazy back and forth at anything over 40-45mph. I know this, as I had to tow mine like this on a dolly after I blew the 1.6 diff up at the track. A 911, maybe, but not a Miata.

I then towed it with the front wheels on the dolly 2.5 hours in 85* weather, raced in 105* weather for 3 hours (3 hours of track time) and dollyed it home in 105* weather just fine. All in a 1988 V6 Chevy 1500, AC on the way there, broken by the time I left
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:38 AM   #100
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Silly rabbit. Dollies don't kill transmissions, turbos do.

I've towed rwd vehicles (including my rx7) on my dolly for thousands of miles without incident. And I realize they aren't all engineered equally.

Yep.
A trailer is preferred. A trailer is more expensive. A trailer takes much more space to store when not being used. You can back up a trailer and not a loaded dolly. A dolly is better than pulling a broken car home with a strap. A dolly is cheaper than a tow truck after just a couple of uses.

I would rather have a trailer, but somebody was complaining about money at the beginning of this thread before he started talking about dropping 20k like it was a Kleenex. I was searching for a serious answer to a problem with certain parameters. I later realized that the problem doesn't really exist. Someone is just being neurotic...again. No worries.
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