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Old 05-07-2009, 04:07 PM   #1
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Default Track wing?

OK ok ok.. I did use the search button, and have read up on stuff like Sav's wing. Well, I finally got my hands on a spare trunk lid for track days. I came across a very good deal on a wing too.. but, it's not a super tall one. What i am wondering is, in you guys' opinion, would this work with a higher angle of attack at higher speeds?? I'd be pretty sure it wont do much at lower speed because the lack of airflow, but it seems that at 100+ it would have some effect... probably just enough. Hell, I could always make some mounts later.

Just wanted to get some opinions...
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:17 PM   #2
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At low speeds with a high enough angle of attack it should work. I think Moti's original spoiler and all the autocross guys running basically the same thing pretty much proved that.
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:31 PM   #3
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That doesn't look adjustable. Is it?
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:46 PM   #4
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needs more 10" extensions....
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Old 05-07-2009, 04:50 PM   #5
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Mount some Airtabs across the HT to bring the air down to the wing. That or get it up into some cleaner air. Did you drive around with it some? Should feel some change at speed even on the street. Any plans for the front to balance out any effect the wing might have?
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:01 PM   #6
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I tested nothing, the OE lip and a wing similar to above, but taller. The OE lip did create a noticeable amount of downforce compared to nothing, while the big wing made a dramatic difference over the OE lip. They will all create downforce and at lower speeds than you think. Note that the high dollar wings on race cars don't have that rounded trailing edge - that rounded edge is a boat anchor when it comes to drag.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:20 PM   #7
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I would say that the added effectiveness of a taller wing would be worth it.

If you plotted:

1. Traction problems related to speed
2. Downforce as a function of speed for this wing
3. Downforce as a function of speed for Sav's wing

Name:  downforce3.png
Views: 46
Size:  19.5 KB

You may end up with something like this that would make that wing miss the sweet spot that Sav is talking about on corner exits with his.

This is just a guesstimate, but you get the idea. I would want more traction on the low/mid speed corners where the lower gearing inhibits throttle input.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
I would say that the added effectiveness of a taller wing would be worth it.

If you plotted:

1. Traction problems related to speed
2. Downforce as a function of speed for this wing
3. Downforce as a function of speed for Sav's wing



You may end up with something like this that would make that wing miss the sweet spot that Sav is talking about on corner exits with his.

This is just a guesstimate, but you get the idea. I would want more traction on the low/mid speed corners where the lower gearing inhibits throttle input.


What you're missing is drag. the gay wing very well may produce just as much down force as the fancy wing, but at a much higher drag coefficient. You can produce a large amount of downforce with a flat sheet at a signifigant enough attack angle.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:43 PM   #9
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Yeah, you're right, that just makes it worse.


Point being, if you're going to hang a 4' airfoil on the back of your car, you might as well drop the coin and get something that works. Working being lots of downforce -at effective speeds- without resorting to a crazy angle of attack. I've seen a few of the standard NACA airfoils in a wind tunnel, and drag force does ramp up pretty fast.

You'd likely end up sacrificing on two fronts with a wing like that.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:49 PM   #10
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The price may make it worthwhile if you can pickup the difference in lap time you'd get from running hoosiers and no wing with nittos and a gay wing.

If you're on a slower track and can overcome the drag with power. If the majority of tracks are fast then it's probably not worth it.
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Old 05-07-2009, 05:55 PM   #11
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I should add that the testing I did was on a 99 Miata weighing in at 2375lbs with driver and making 155rwhp. The car rolling on 225-24-15 spec Hoosiers. Testing at Rd. Atlanta, car was quicker with more downforce, and the big wing had a rounded edge. There's enough high speed turns at Rd. Atlanta to make even the crappiest wing worth the drag on a lower power Miata.
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
I should add that the testing I did was on a 99 Miata weighing in at 2375lbs with driver and making 155rwhp. The car rolling on 225-24-15 spec Hoosiers. Testing at Rd. Atlanta, car was quicker with more downforce, and the big wing had a rounded edge. There's enough high speed turns at Rd. Atlanta to make even the crappiest wing worth the drag on a lower power Miata.
So regardless of drag, weight, tires, or cheapness...the downforce is worth it?

So this means pretty much any Miata with more than 150whp can benefit from running a wing?

I believe it, I feel my rear end getting loser than hustler's on a Friday night when I do 80mph around a 45mph bend. I'm not sure how much drag one of those would add, but it's probably equivalent to what I could lose in two months with a good diet.
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:31 PM   #13
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The big draw backs on a gay wing like this that I can see is the airfoil might create alot of drag, and the end plates are thick and rounded and not removable, and it doesn't look like it's adjustable. The height of the wing is a cheap and easy enough thing to change. Looks like it mounts to the trunk but you can probably redrill and mount it farther out.
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:09 PM   #14
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1- I can make the wing adjustable...not hard to fab up a bracket/riser with multiple holes.
2- I'm not going for every thenth/second... looking for some stability for HPDE/Track days between Road Atlanta and TGP.
3- 250+rwhp should be enough to have fun with.
4- Yes, I plan on a splitter/under tray for the front that will be about 1" in front of the bumper to the center of the front wheels (per SSM regulations..it's staying on the car when I do auto-x)

So, if said when can be had for under $300... it sound like a helper to me.
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:31 PM   #15
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:32 PM   #16
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Don't spend $300 on that wing until you check your PM.
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Swearingen View Post
Don't spend $300 on that wing until you check your PM.


What do you got?
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenR View Post
What do you got?
My $.02 worth of free advice
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeAdvice;
Couple of points
1) SSM says 6" in front of front bumper for the splitter, but my home depot air dam does a fine job of balancing my rear wing.
2)For autocross http://www.aprperformance.com/index....d=40&Itemid=44 List for $350 and I can put you in touch with a guy who can most likely get your cost below $xxx for the GT-II (Aluminum) . You probably want to talk to him about getting two 7.5" cambered wings rather than the stock 7.5" flat and 5" cambered on the GT-II

3) A big autocross wing might not work as well on the track, but the APR GTC-200 can be had for a reasonable price also.
Cost edited to a) not start a run and b) not speak for someone else and c) not advertise on the forum
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:27 AM   #19
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I don't know that a crappy wing would show an advantage on every track for car "X". There's a lot of variables, which is why were testing. But at road atlanta, the increase in corner speeds allowed for higher speeds up three of the turns that exited into uphills. So that benefit was greater than the drag it created in the straights.
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Old 05-08-2009, 11:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
I don't know that a crappy wing would show an advantage on every track for car "X". There's a lot of variables, which is why were testing. But at road atlanta, the increase in corner speeds allowed for higher speeds up three of the turns that exited into uphills. So that benefit was greater than the drag it created in the straights.
Which pretty much answers my question.


I'm not raving that this is the best wing design by any means, but more or less wondering that for the price, the design of the wing will indeed have benefits.
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