Very interesting Spec Miata thread
01-13-2010, 03:05 PM
#23
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That thread has been closed since I first read it. Is there any way Jim can close it himself, to keep others from posting in it? So he can open it, post something, then close it again?
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01-13-2010, 03:09 PM
#24
You can still run in the SM group with other tires, you'll just get disqualified (assuming you place well enough for anyone to care) and your points wouldn't count. Who's to stop you. Get your asses out there.
I personally am building a spec so I'd love to have more cars out there; It's already a huge group. I don't buy all these excuses for not going spec because of the cheating...I have friends that run up front and they are damn good drivers and that's it. An engine only helps you once you have the skill to run up front. If you aren't top 5, don't even waste your money on an engine.
I personally am building a spec so I'd love to have more cars out there; It's already a huge group. I don't buy all these excuses for not going spec because of the cheating...I have friends that run up front and they are damn good drivers and that's it. An engine only helps you once you have the skill to run up front. If you aren't top 5, don't even waste your money on an engine.
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01-13-2010, 03:22 PM
#26
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A quick link to posts regarding ecu reflash/resocket, including source contact info for those interested:
SM Re-flashers go public
Also:
Socketing ECU? - Page 14 - MX-5 Miata Forum
The last link, a HUGE thread with interest from ST autocross guys. Apparently, the SM guys co-opted this stuff quietly. I can't imagine competing against a guy that can tune fuel and spark tables if I had a real stock ECU.
SM Re-flashers go public
Also:
Socketing ECU? - Page 14 - MX-5 Miata Forum
The last link, a HUGE thread with interest from ST autocross guys. Apparently, the SM guys co-opted this stuff quietly. I can't imagine competing against a guy that can tune fuel and spark tables if I had a real stock ECU.
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01-13-2010, 03:43 PM
#27
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I figured Jim did it himself to keep that thread free of derailment by questions, idle chit-chat, "spirit of the rules" discussions, etc. I doubt another mod would lock Jim's thread, after all he is the founder of the site.
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01-13-2010, 03:52 PM
#28
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Jim owns the site, I'm sure he locked it himself. I don't want to repeat the discussion we had at VIR in Oct of 08 but lets just say I sold my spec in January of 09. The stuff some of these spec guys do is crazy and Rlogan your buddies are full of ****...sorry.
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01-13-2010, 06:43 PM
#30
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It is definitely very possible to run near the front without anything illegal and without a pro motor. You can't have a dying motor, but a strong crate motor from Mazda can be enough.
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01-13-2010, 07:03 PM
#31
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I always thought a LeMons/Chump Car series with a GRM $20xx-like budget cap, specish car and no stupid themes would be fun. The themes are fun as a spectator, but I think I'd hate it if I tried to compete.
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01-13-2010, 08:10 PM
#33
Guys, I started racing SM before there was a class. Shannon Mc. built his car and then mine. We hauled all over showing them off running in ITA and it took off like rabbits. Way back then (1999) Shannon said it would be best for SM to remain a Regional only class. Going National would raise the price of poker. Well that is what has taken place. Hey, SM does not have any more cheating than several other classes. It is still a great class and a fun place to race. ITA is another great place to race a miata. If you race and you want it to be a true "spec" situation, it has to be done like TDI Cup. Those cars are prepped, transported, and supported by VW. Racers show up and drive them. Spec Miata Spec Racer Ford etc. are close to spec classes, but not true everybody has the same thing classes. Still SM can be a very cost effective place to race.
I just wanted to let people who are casual readers have a viewpoint from someone who has seen the class from it's birth. It ain't perfect, but it IS a great place to race.
I just wanted to let people who are casual readers have a viewpoint from someone who has seen the class from it's birth. It ain't perfect, but it IS a great place to race.
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01-13-2010, 09:09 PM
#34
People who build cheater cars do not bother me. If they have the money, and are willing to spend it, then go ahead. What other people have in the their cars on track is NOT going to stop me from driving my car 10\10 while I'm out there. It also makes it beating them that much better.
That being said, I would love to race SM.
That being said, I would love to race SM.
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01-14-2010, 10:20 AM
#35
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Guys, I started racing SM before there was a class. Shannon Mc. built his car and then mine. We hauled all over showing them off running in ITA and it took off like rabbits. Way back then (1999) Shannon said it would be best for SM to remain a Regional only class. Going National would raise the price of poker. Well that is what has taken place. Hey, SM does not have any more cheating than several other classes. It is still a great class and a fun place to race. ITA is another great place to race a miata. If you race and you want it to be a true "spec" situation, it has to be done like TDI Cup. Those cars are prepped, transported, and supported by VW. Racers show up and drive them. Spec Miata Spec Racer Ford etc. are close to spec classes, but not true everybody has the same thing classes. Still SM can be a very cost effective place to race.
I just wanted to let people who are casual readers have a viewpoint from someone who has seen the class from it's birth. It ain't perfect, but it IS a great place to race.
I just wanted to let people who are casual readers have a viewpoint from someone who has seen the class from it's birth. It ain't perfect, but it IS a great place to race.
+1 on pretty much everything you said. I certainly hope that nobody sees at least what I wrote on this thread as shitting on Spec Miata, and hopefully nobody is stupid enough to take what is said here as gospel, and let it dissuade them of running SM without doing some more homework. I do think that it is a fun series, and at very least the ease of use and the reliability of the platform is enough to make it a fun outlet.
SM has been a victim of it's own success, in terms of moving from a regional to national series. Given that NASA and SCCA are always looking to increase car counts, when they have a winner on their hands such as SM, it is in the best interest of the club(s) to run highly subscribed classes as much as possible, hence moving SM to a National class.
On a regional level, it seems like for the most part you can be competitive in a reasonably prepped car with a jy/crate motor and great driving. There are a number of regionally competitive SM drivers in my area that are personal friends of mine, and while I'm sure that they wouldn't openly admit to cheating, I would be surprised if they are going to the lengths that some of the national guys are to win.
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01-14-2010, 10:29 AM
#36
We were talking about doing a crown vic series with ex police cars this weekend. Talk about challenging....and you wouldn't find a safer car at 4000 +lbs. If you didn't understand weight transfer before you drove a Crown Vic, you certainly would afterward. They are a very good learning tool; much more so than any sports car.
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01-14-2010, 02:55 PM
#37
The thread JD put up was a little out there. I think in some part he was trying to push the powers that be to address issues that seem too difficult to address.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can. I have found that going from SM to IT has added back an element of fun found in racing for fun that had sort of left in SM. In SM on a national level most are racing for the RunOffs. I much prefer Regional racing where most races mean as much as the other, and you can go to ARRC @ RAtlanta in November and run in what is pretty much accepted as a national championship race.
The other place that I would direct some of the younger guys is to ENDURANCE RACING. Not LeMons or Chump Car so much, (althought these are fun) but SCCA or NASA Enduros. Three guys can pool their resources together and build an SM/IT enduro car and run four or five times a year on the cheap. You definitly don't need the high dollar SM "grey parts" to do well in enduros. You need a car that is driven smart, is prepped well, and crewed well. Instead of one guy spending a bunch to try to chasethe national SM crowd, a group can run 12hr, 8Hr, and 6Hr enduros and have a blast.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can. I have found that going from SM to IT has added back an element of fun found in racing for fun that had sort of left in SM. In SM on a national level most are racing for the RunOffs. I much prefer Regional racing where most races mean as much as the other, and you can go to ARRC @ RAtlanta in November and run in what is pretty much accepted as a national championship race.
The other place that I would direct some of the younger guys is to ENDURANCE RACING. Not LeMons or Chump Car so much, (althought these are fun) but SCCA or NASA Enduros. Three guys can pool their resources together and build an SM/IT enduro car and run four or five times a year on the cheap. You definitly don't need the high dollar SM "grey parts" to do well in enduros. You need a car that is driven smart, is prepped well, and crewed well. Instead of one guy spending a bunch to try to chasethe national SM crowd, a group can run 12hr, 8Hr, and 6Hr enduros and have a blast.
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01-14-2010, 03:56 PM
#38
The thread JD put up was a little out there. I think in some part he was trying to push the powers that be to address issues that seem too difficult to address.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can.
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01-15-2010, 10:36 AM
#40
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The thread JD put up was a little out there. I think in some part he was trying to push the powers that be to address issues that seem too difficult to address.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can. I have found that going from SM to IT has added back an element of fun found in racing for fun that had sort of left in SM. In SM on a national level most are racing for the RunOffs. I much prefer Regional racing where most races mean as much as the other, and you can go to ARRC @ RAtlanta in November and run in what is pretty much accepted as a national championship race.
The other place that I would direct some of the younger guys is to ENDURANCE RACING. Not LeMons or Chump Car so much, (althought these are fun) but SCCA or NASA Enduros. Three guys can pool their resources together and build an SM/IT enduro car and run four or five times a year on the cheap. You definitly don't need the high dollar SM "grey parts" to do well in enduros. You need a car that is driven smart, is prepped well, and crewed well. Instead of one guy spending a bunch to try to chasethe national SM crowd, a group can run 12hr, 8Hr, and 6Hr enduros and have a blast.
Let me tell ya SM has its warts, but so do most all SCCA / NASA classes. The nature of racing is to push the edge..... work the grey area.... find an advantage. Mark Donahue / Roger Penske are held on a pedestal in the world of racing yet they were the ultimate grey area engineers. I came into racing after spending the better part of my life in the golf industry. In golf players call infractions on themselves when no one else sees the infraction. That is part of the culture of the game. When I got into racing I had a hard time accepting that racers would not only NOT call infractions on themselves but work long and hard, spend big money, and do everything possile to stretch if not break rules. I finally came to grips that the make up of racing includes "development" that sometimess exceeds the intent of the rules. History has told us that the letter of the law in racing is not as definite...as in say the sport of golf. Is it RIGHT? I don't know, but I quit being concerned and just spend what I can afford and race as hard as I can. I have found that going from SM to IT has added back an element of fun found in racing for fun that had sort of left in SM. In SM on a national level most are racing for the RunOffs. I much prefer Regional racing where most races mean as much as the other, and you can go to ARRC @ RAtlanta in November and run in what is pretty much accepted as a national championship race.
The other place that I would direct some of the younger guys is to ENDURANCE RACING. Not LeMons or Chump Car so much, (althought these are fun) but SCCA or NASA Enduros. Three guys can pool their resources together and build an SM/IT enduro car and run four or five times a year on the cheap. You definitly don't need the high dollar SM "grey parts" to do well in enduros. You need a car that is driven smart, is prepped well, and crewed well. Instead of one guy spending a bunch to try to chasethe national SM crowd, a group can run 12hr, 8Hr, and 6Hr enduros and have a blast.
I think this is why Emilio's Miata Challenge is taking off. If you want to send your bilsteins off for a revalve its not cheating, cams not cheating, etc. So instead of the guys paying 7k for a "stock motor" they can pay 7k and build a car. Letting all the mods you want add up to a certain number value that throws you in a certain class keeps people from spending retarded money on parts that are grey.
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