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Old 11-05-2008, 02:39 PM   #221
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Not late in my book. I would gladly eat the cost of the gears to have someone tell me they wouldn't work. Far, far better than losing a motor.

Odds are they are fine. If someone can tell me they ran the hell out of them, I'd like to hear it. :-)
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:00 PM   #222
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pat, you think the 01 gears are slightly larger to increase oil flow rate for the VVT mechanism?
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:36 PM   #223
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pat, you think the 01 gears are slightly larger to increase oil flow rate for the VVT mechanism?
That's my guess, but it might actually not be that. The regulator in there has two outlets, you'll notice - one on each side. The oil coming out of the "outer" channel has to then make it around the body itself - most of the redesign of the cover and the pump body was to accommodate that flow, as best I can tell.

I assume they wanted more flow for the VVT, but my guess is they are worried about wrecking the VVT mechanism or just not being able to control it when cold... Perhaps the peak oil pressure is lower in the VVT cars. Whatever the reason, they have the ability to bleed off twice the volume of oil as before, and the ability to supply some amount (5%?) more than before.

Makes me think it's a better pump. The gears looked pretty similar it would be interesting to see if they are the same material, etc.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:00 PM   #224
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Pat, hardness doesn't matter, its how brittle the gears are that will cause failure (not from crank flex)
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:07 PM   #225
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Alright I just heard back from the machinist, he says he's going to be able to accommodate the machining changes. Now as far as the people with escort/protege gears that don't fit if I can get Loki to CMM them I can get them cut. The CMM is down at the machine shop I use (great timing huh?) so he won't be able to do it. Just send the gears back if you have the 01+ version, and I should be able to get something back to you in about 2 weeks. He has to wait for the machines to clear again. Sorry Abe I know you've been itching to get that machine together, but that's as fast as I can get it done.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:38 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Eight? Are you serious? How many engines did you build? Over what period of time? That sucks and is definitely a very unusual case. (IE-I doubt there are even eight cases of failed OP gears on engines with balancers not counting yours) And I'm gonna have to call you on "I made power till 8500rpm". It might have spun that fast, but no way on earth you were making peak power at 8500. Probably peak power around 7-7.5K tops.

99% of the built engines being built are gonna fall on their face at high revs just like every other miata engine. No need to spin the engine to 8K+. Sure, the over rev is nice, but other than that it's all those RPMs are good for.

Hard to imagine mazda would make different oil pumps for the same block. Hard to imagine they would change the oil pump on an 01. Hard to believe one guy broke 8 oil pumps. Hard to believe "billet" gears could break. (you know the factory gears are billet, right?) But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. I think the seller made too many assumptions and they catching up now one by one.

I think these gears are too hard for the application. I'm gonna laugh when someone puts these gears in their pump and breaks them. Who's gonna be the guinea pig to test these? Like Loki said, it's 3% text book, 97% experience. These gears might "seem" great (they're BILLET for crying out loud, they must be great! BILLET!). But the fact is nobody will know how durable these gears really are for a long time.
Actually as loki pointed out they are sintered, and even though these gears are physically smaller then the 2003 oil pump that Abe weighed it against the billet part that BE churned out was 40 grams heavier. Why would that be? Because sintered parts never pack right and are always porous and weak.

All youíre doing is spouting off a bunch of unfounded, non-academically backed crap to a guy who has done nothing but really take what Loki, and Y8's worked very hard on and manufactured it. Everyone in this community knew that the "product" that I was evidently pushing like "drugs" was a group effort. I will be running these gears in my car, I have a set aside for myself, and I would like to know why I would manufacture something that would detonate my own engine instead of doing it right in the first place.

This project has been checked off by a lot of people. Myself and Mark the other engineer I spoke of have both signed off on the materials, and the manufacturing process. My C.N.C. shop also weighed in on the appropriate way to manufacture, and what they thought about optimizing tolerances and finishing operations. The guy who advised me on this has been in the industry for his entire life which he just turned 50 you do the math. Loki did the CMM operations, and Y8ís did the CAD for the files. I then rechecked those files with the machine shop as well against my extra set of stock gears. After that a prototype set were cut, and then they were put into 2 separate housings and tweaked. I donít understand how I could have been any more careful with material selection, manufacturing process, and accuracy to the part.

More over if you had just paid attention to the original post the RC was stated at 32, but I since backed off on that as it was expensive and could cause wear problems to the housing. If you thought that RC16 had tendencies to have problems, then why did you buy something that at last call was RC 32??

Quit stirring people up! We all worked hard to do something big for the community, and you are trying to tear it all down. Why? I have absolutely no clue, but maybe you should turn in your wrenches for a crochet set and give us all a break from it.
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Old 11-06-2008, 12:34 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Actually as loki pointed out they are sintered, and even though these gears are physically smaller then the 2003 oil pump that Abe weighed it against the billet part that BE churned out was 40 grams heavier. Why would that be? Because sintered parts never pack right and are always porous and weak.

All youíre doing is spouting off a bunch of unfounded, non-academically backed crap to a guy who has done nothing but really take what Loki, and Y8's worked very hard on and manufactured it. Everyone in this community knew that the "product" that I was evidently pushing like "drugs" was a group effort. I will be running these gears in my car, I have a set aside for myself, and I would like to know why I would manufacture something that would detonate my own engine instead of doing it right in the first place.

This project has been checked off by a lot of people. Myself and Mark the other engineer I spoke of have both signed off on the materials, and the manufacturing process. My C.N.C. shop also weighed in on the appropriate way to manufacture, and what they thought about optimizing tolerances and finishing operations. The guy who advised me on this has been in the industry for his entire life which he just turned 50 you do the math. Loki did the CMM operations, and Y8ís did the CAD for the files. I then rechecked those files with the machine shop as well against my extra set of stock gears. After that a prototype set were cut, and then they were put into 2 separate housings and tweaked. I donít understand how I could have been any more careful with material selection, manufacturing process, and accuracy to the part.

More over if you had just paid attention to the original post the RC was stated at 32, but I since backed off on that as it was expensive and could cause wear problems to the housing. If you thought that RC16 had tendencies to have problems, then why did you buy something that at last call was RC 32??

Quit stirring people up! We all worked hard to do something big for the community, and you are trying to tear it all down. Why? I have absolutely no clue, but maybe you should turn in your wrenches for a crochet set and give us all a break from it.
You made several assumptions. So far, a few of them have been proven to be wrong. That's fact. IIRC, Stein is the one that measured the hardness of the stock gears and he couldn't even get a reading on RC. Said they were very soft. (obviously, they're sintered) I'm not trying to tear anything down. In my opinion, you need to back up and get everything figured out, and then test your own product to make sure it's gonna work as intended. You think my opinion is crap, fine. I'll sit back and watch how this all unfolds.
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Old 11-06-2008, 01:05 AM   #228
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No one is saying your opinion is crap, but you haven't laid anything down thats solid. In my opinion atleast.

How are we going to test them? Spin them for 100k miles worth of equivalent use? That is absolutely ludicrous to even say. Does anyone have, 100,000 dollars for fuel and upkeep, a turbo engine making 350 whp that will last 100000 miles with regular intervals to max R.P.M. and WOT? We also need an engine dyno, and to hire an operator to run it for its 3 month testing period, maybe a mechanic staff to fix the motor every time something besides the oil pump breaks.

We can only really go on our best assumptions from experience and science. The material is much better then stock, the parts were cut very exactly by an extremely experienced machinist. All decisions on the part were at least double checked with other professionals and some triple checked.

If you’re talking about the shipping, none of the gears were damaged to any functional extent. I was wrong about the rigors of shipping solid pieces of steel through the insanity that is U.S.P.S. I’ll pad them next time, but for the record what the hell were they doing with my packages???

If you are talking about the oil pump gears, we had come to a censes as a community that these were all the same, otherwise someone would of spoken up and said something. There wasn't a collection of money held to acquire every oil pump housing from every relevant BP engine. We just done the best we could and no one’s feelings are hurt here.

We’re going to get this worked out, and this is something that’s going to save people a lot of money when their letting it eat 3rd gear @ 30 P.S.I and 8500 R.P.M. edging out that vett who's smug attitude begs to be dealt with. I don't know what thousands of pounds of bearing load does to a dry journal at that speed, but I wouldn't want to be the one taking the picture to find out.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:09 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Eight? Are you serious? How many engines did you build? Over what period of time? That sucks and is definitely a very unusual case. (IE-I doubt there are even eight cases of failed OP gears on engines with balancers not counting yours) And I'm gonna have to call you on "I made power till 8500rpm". It might have spun that fast, but no way on earth you were making peak power at 8500. Probably peak power around 7-7.5K tops.
I was racing in a Pro Class every weekend in 2 different series. We built a ton of motors for myself and others. My car would be within 10-20 hp of peak power right till 8500rpm. I was much better off to pull the gear out than shift. Especially in 4th gear.

Not to be a know it all, but I have done many many things with our BP motors and also know how are it is to get over 500whp on them. My best was 498 :(
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:19 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Weíre going to get this worked out, and this is something thatís going to save people a lot of money when their letting it eat 3rd gear @ 30 P.S.I and 8500 R.P.M. edging out that vett who's smug attitude begs to be dealt with. I don't know what thousands of pounds of bearing load does to a dry journal at that speed, but I wouldn't want to be the one taking the picture to find out.
heh... Spoken like a true enthusiast.

The only real point of any validity is some testing, one spin of a motor under power up to speed, or some good simulation thereof.

Hopefully someone will get back to the community at large soon on this one.

Don't worry too much, I have my old '00 pump with stock gear to put in this motor. Just means pulling off a lot of RTV from the oil pan, redoing the timing belt and valve cover. Totally worth it to help out the cause. If someone buys me a beer, I'd consider myself ahead. :-)

PM me your address and what you want, otherwise, I'll just send the whole 2001 pump as is.

FYI people, I don't KNOW what year my pump is off of. I suspect it's a 2003, since the oil pan was from one. The valve cover was labeled 2001. My guess is it's all VVT.
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Old 11-06-2008, 06:39 PM   #231
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I do have a spare 01 block if you want me to pull the pump.
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Old 11-06-2008, 07:14 PM   #232
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I dunno about Travis, but I would. :-) Then I can swap oil pumps later, after I build my second motor. Not that I'm super happy with the '01 oil pump housing I have anyways.

Actually, forget it. It's way better if I pull mine. So don't bother. Thanks for the offer though.
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Old 11-06-2008, 11:17 PM   #233
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Have the other international orders received their pumps yet?

I am yet to get mine...
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Old 11-07-2008, 01:15 AM   #234
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Travis,

Could you please PM me your mailing address, so I can get the gears back to you. (I needed to get my post count to 15 to PM a response back to you)

Thanks,
John
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Old 11-07-2008, 02:00 AM   #235
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I shipped all the international orders at once, and I'm getting really worried that none of them have showed up yet. The down side is that I couldn't insure the packages, or get delivery conformation since it was international, give it a while longer. I have no idea what to do if none of them arrive.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:15 AM   #236
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Travis,

Were the international orders shipped airmail or surface?

Rich.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:40 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
No one is saying your opinion is crap, but you haven't laid anything down thats solid. In my opinion atleast.

How are we going to test them? Spin them for 100k miles worth of equivalent use? That is absolutely ludicrous to even say. Does anyone have, 100,000 dollars for fuel and upkeep, a turbo engine making 350 whp that will last 100000 miles with regular intervals to max R.P.M. and WOT? We also need an engine dyno, and to hire an operator to run it for its 3 month testing period, maybe a mechanic staff to fix the motor every time something besides the oil pump breaks.

We can only really go on our best assumptions from experience and science. The material is much better then stock, the parts were cut very exactly by an extremely experienced machinist. All decisions on the part were at least double checked with other professionals and some triple checked.

If you’re talking about the shipping, none of the gears were damaged to any functional extent. I was wrong about the rigors of shipping solid pieces of steel through the insanity that is U.S.P.S. I’ll pad them next time, but for the record what the hell were they doing with my packages???

If you are talking about the oil pump gears, we had come to a censes as a community that these were all the same, otherwise someone would of spoken up and said something. There wasn't a collection of money held to acquire every oil pump housing from every relevant BP engine. We just done the best we could and no one’s feelings are hurt here.

We’re going to get this worked out, and this is something that’s going to save people a lot of money when their letting it eat 3rd gear @ 30 P.S.I and 8500 R.P.M. edging out that vett who's smug attitude begs to be dealt with. I don't know what thousands of pounds of bearing load does to a dry journal at that speed, but I wouldn't want to be the one taking the picture to find out.
Maybe I'm missing the way this operation went down I know i wasn't here for a lot of it. As far as I know Travis was following through on what I couldn't make happen. I looked at Travis the way I look at a co-op, were each responsible for what the final product is. The material was discussed a while ago and debated which way to go. If the gear material choice ends up being wrong then we were wrong. For the amount of time and money we have spent on this (and i mean we as in the entire forum) we could get an awesome reward.

And Travis I really appreciate you making this happen.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:42 AM   #238
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They were all shipped through U.S.P.S. priority mail. I'm assuming the domestic side is atleast air based because its all 2 day delivery. Maybe the international shipping is surface based.
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Old 11-07-2008, 02:35 PM   #239
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International mail gets held up in customs, especially if it's metal.
No worries yet, it can take several weeks.

As far as gears go, as I said before, everyone back off for a moment, there is nothing wrong with the gears unless you have a 01+ motor, and Travis is addressing the situation.
Just relax...
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:03 PM   #240
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When did you ship the international stuff?

I find USPS priority stuff is usually about 2 weeks from the states to my place, but I wouldn't start worrying it it took 3.
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