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Old 11-23-2008, 02:20 AM   #261
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I can sneak the money onto my card. What the hell, how about some more info?
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Old 11-23-2008, 01:32 PM   #262
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Abe,

I'm not sure who your asking. I meant to tell you your gears did get here, and they were most professionally wrapped As from tracking number I'm not sure what your asking for?
Yes, I took your "just enough to survive" mentality, then added the barest minimum to it since I only had to do one. People who say I should clean my desk are missing out on the vital national resource that junk on it can make for packaging.

As to the tracking number, er, that was a bit of a joke. Can't track it without the number, and can't find out the number till it shows up at your door.


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I can sneak the money onto my card. What the hell, how about some more info?
Check his tag line? Also, probably first post in the thread should have a link to an info thread.

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The link for the clearances are located here thanks to Abe: [url=http://abefm.smugmug.com/gallery/6443379_jsSg5#408336964_S3M3z-O-LB]I'm going to be working on this once I get my new composite cam gears in, and I have a reason to go in there. I'm going to see if this is possible with the oil pan on. So sometime within the next few weeks I'll have a write up either way.
cam gears? Linkage! I hope they are adjustable, otherwise, I'll save the 2 ounces out of my flywheel instead?

As to pulling the oil pump, I stared and stared, and decided no way, pan has to come off. Not only is the pick up tube and all that mounted to it, it's also the case that you'll want to do some nice RTV-age on there, or you'll never get the thing to not leak.

BTW - how's the housing? I wasn't super happy with it, kinda galled, but what do I know? :-)
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:08 PM   #263
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https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t26520-2/

Did i just jack my own thread? I'm about a month later on this then i thought. My associate is working frantically to get these done, but endless setbacks as usual. When you say you want a reasonable price it always adds 1 month to the manufacturing time. It is like they have a stack of prints, and they put yours on the bottom, when new orders come in, they put those on the top. Its dumb luck that they ever get cut.

I didn't look at it that hard to tell you the truth, I remember a little bit of wear. I pulled down the measurements and cad'd the new part along with making a different process spec. Before I send I'll take a look in there. It wouldn't surprise me, they done oiling system as cheap as they could. That old school F1 mentality, if it runs a meter longer then it needs to you wasted effort.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:47 AM   #264
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I got the oil pump gears in the original group buy. I was originally intending to build up my 97 engine and drop the gears into that. Things have changed however (99 head damaged in shipping) and I know a guy who will sell me an entire 99 engine at a decent price. The 99 and the 97 blocks are practically the same right? Does anyone know if the gears I received will fit in the 99 oil pump? If not is it possible to swap the 97 oil pump onto the 99 block?
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:25 PM   #265
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Yes, it will fit no problem, have no fears, I did it myself in my own 2000 motor.

A word of advice - the pistons from the '97 are 9:1 verses 9.2 or 9.5, I forget, better for a turbo application. There's superstition the rods are better out of the earlier motors, as well.

So I would recommend keeping those parts out of your current motor, I ran this set up for years, and recently swapped that into my current 2001 motor, and run 14 psi without issue.

Pics of head? How did it get damaged in shipping?!
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:28 PM   #266
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Thanks for the advice. At this point I am actually going to be putting in Wiseco 9:1 pistons with h-beam rods. I haven't yet ripped apart my 97 block but I might look into swapping the 99 pistons into the 97 if I am going to keep the engine around.

How are the gears running so far? The reason I got these gears is because I am interested in how far the rev threshold can be pushed. I am doing some research on crank flex right now. This is my first time doing a built engine so I am taking my time and doing my research.

As for the head they must have dropped it or something.

Dead Head

I am in the final stages of waiting for the insurance verdict.
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:55 PM   #267
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Are you taking notes on the redline thing? I'm sort of doing the same - picked up a MBSP (have a spare, btw), got h-beams and getting weiscos. Trying to decide what to do to the valve train, and will be putting in the gears soon. Not going to do arp studs till I see some good reason for it. Think it should be a nice motor.
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:24 PM   #268
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Hey travis. My motor just spun a bearing not long ago, it's a long nose 1.6. How long before I can get a set of these gears into the motor? Looking to build the motor so i know it won't break. Also looking to do the work myself without a shop, if possible.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:12 AM   #269
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Trying to decide what to do to the valve train, and will be putting in the gears soon. Not going to do arp studs till I see some good reason for it. Think it should be a nice motor.
As for my valve train plans:
Supertech dual coil valve springs
Toda Cams
Toda adjustable Cams pulleys

Dual coil springs are supposed to deal with harmonics better. I don't have any experience with them yet though. Stiffer valve springs will create more resistance in your valve train and will rob power if you don't take advantage of them at higher revs. As for the cams I have to do quite a bit of research before settling on the specifics. I will probably finish my engine build before I start focusing on the head. I want to see where I am at before I make the expensive leap into cams. I do not plan to do any porting at this point. The 99 is already very good. The only thing from that list I will get for my initial build is the adjustable cam pulleys.
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Old 12-01-2008, 06:29 PM   #270
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Hey travis. My motor just spun a bearing not long ago, it's a long nose 1.6. How long before I can get a set of these gears into the motor? Looking to build the motor so i know it won't break. Also looking to do the work myself without a shop, if possible.
I've got one I can get you if you go ahead and order now. Boundary Engineering

The work is doable without a shop, I'm working on instructions now, but pull, measure, and replace should be it.

Travis
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:04 AM   #271
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Hey Travis, did my second set of gears ever come back to you?
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:29 AM   #272
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Yea I just got them Matt, I know you've been waiting forever for them. I'm shipping them today sorry on the delay.

Travis
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Old 12-03-2008, 03:38 AM   #273
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No worries. As it turns out, I'm working out a deal to sell the motor those gears were going into (the GTR) in order to replace it with a 99 Miata motor.

As an aside, is there any reason why I can't/shouldn't use the Miata oil pan in a FWD application? I haven't been able to think of one, but maybe someone here knows better...
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:59 PM   #274
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I don't *know*, but I would certainly worry about the oil pick up being in a bad location for a front driver. It's well known that some motors will slosh the oil away from the pick up, starving the motor for oil under the hardest of accelerations. One might be advised to compare the shape and location of the pick up tube and pan, along with the capacity.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:24 AM   #275
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True, that was one of the things I planned to look at before making a decision. No sense building something nice just to have oil starvation the first time I take it to the track.

Judging from pictures I've found (have yet to take the pan off of my Miata), it looks like the pick up location should be fine; same concept as the GT, just moved roughly 10"+ over towards the center of the car.

The capacity is the same (at least between my Miata and EGT), so the big question is really whether I'd run into starvation problems...
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:46 PM   #276
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...

Has anyone else taken off their 01-up oil pump housing and seen irregular wear marks. Upon first review of Abe's housing it appeared to be odd, but ok. Whenever we were doing the final analysis for making the new parts today Abe's housing had a .005 taper in the bottom of it (where the oil pump sits), which is really severe considering the requirements of the clearances. We make all the parts on the small side, because I've done the calculations on the parts, and they will work fine over a much larger range. (That was probable put in the manual for the reason, that wider would indicate something else has gone wrong)

However, if Mazda is putting out crap oil pump housings after 01, we might need to accommodate with a different spec. The two housings I had to make the original gears (91.5-97) showed basically no taper. Just .001 over the whole distance. Let me know what you guys find and if there are any more 01 up housings I could borrow to get this figured out.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:39 PM   #277
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That's the '01 pump, I didn't check it for flatness, all I noticed was the grooves where presumably stuff went through the pump. It's tempting to flatten it on a mill.



AbeFM : photos : Billet Oil Pump Gears!- powered by SmugMug more pics
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:20 PM   #278
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Well the way we have them machined right now, they will work fine if your oilpump housing is in new condition, or even some wear. We'll see what they read on your housing after machining.

We really worked this thing over today. He put it under a microscope, we analyzed it for cracks, we tried to identify paralellness of the gears, we worked on this for a good two hours today. (He's just like me too damn curious for his own good!)

We came to the conclusion that we think the inner gear is just a smidge taller then the outer gear. If you look at where the abrading area is the inner gear was digging into that tasty aluminum housing and chewing through it like nothing. So you can imagine the gears under loads while they are pressurizing and this brings the inner gear and outer gear out of concentric and not on the same plane like the earth's orbit around the sun. While its doing that the steel digs down into the pump housing. Thats why where the outer gear area is there is no wear (except right at the high pressure side). If it was a general abrasive media ran through the pump via dirt you would see an even scratching all the way through, but that is simply not the case.

I'm worried that there are alot more pumps out there like this, they just haven't had enough time to suffer fatigue death. In his opinion your housing is junk, we could try to recut it on the mill but we risk a serious chance of nicking the side. It is also a hard part to clamp, so it could end up wrapped around the end mill which is housing death mode number 2.

I'm not sure I would use this housing. Realistically you could run these pumps at 8-9 thousands before you get pressure problems, but the wear is only accelerating from here. We made the clearances out at the limit for a reason. The more oil cushion you have the better the bearing, and the more load and efficiently it turns. This is what happens when things run too tight. Your gear was given 11 tenths on the side clearance which is right at the minimum limit. Thats just too tight, and there is absolutely no point to it.
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:23 PM   #279
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Ah! The sort of gouged section in the middle of the gear overlap. Ok, that makes sense. The '01 looked worse to me there, with the '00 having sort of.. even wear.

I would think the BEST bet is getting a ultra-low-mileage (though I heard that pump only had 30k on it or something ridiculous), but likely brand new '01 oil pump, and putting in your gears. A bit bigger and what looks like better regulation.



'01: BP6D-14-100
'00: BP4W-14-100
notes: 03/01/1999 IDENTIFY MARK (BP4W) - 990301
03/01/1999 NB353* -133012

No idea what it all means, only that there is a difference. Perhaps the late model 2000's also had the new pump?

Ah, looking under 99 gives more notes:

03/01/1999 07/01/2000 IDENTIFY MARK (BP4W) 990301 - 000701
03/01/1999 07/01/2000 NB353*133012-156488

So it seems there's one pump till 3/1/99, another till 7/01/00, and a third from then on?

There's gear part numbers which I can check, too, but it doesn't mean that they are different, only numbered so.

Anyway, since a new pump is.. not cheap, I'll probably put the '01 pump in the 'spare' motor, and the '00 pump in the good motor with your gears in it, and call it good. That pump is also not free of 'center wear' but... it should be ok, it's not nearly as bad.
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Old 12-29-2008, 03:02 PM   #280
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Ah! The sort of gouged section in the middle of the gear overlap. Ok, that makes sense. The '01 looked worse to me there, with the '00 having sort of.. even wear.

I would think the BEST bet is getting a ultra-low-mileage (though I heard that pump only had 30k on it or something ridiculous), but likely brand new '01 oil pump, and putting in your gears. A bit bigger and what looks like better regulation.



'01: BP6D-14-100
'00: BP4W-14-100
notes: 03/01/1999 IDENTIFY MARK (BP4W) - 990301
03/01/1999 NB353* -133012

No idea what it all means, only that there is a difference. Perhaps the late model 2000's also had the new pump?

Ah, looking under 99 gives more notes:

03/01/1999 07/01/2000 IDENTIFY MARK (BP4W) 990301 - 000701
03/01/1999 07/01/2000 NB353*133012-156488

So it seems there's one pump till 3/1/99, another till 7/01/00, and a third from then on?

There's gear part numbers which I can check, too, but it doesn't mean that they are different, only numbered so.

Anyway, since a new pump is.. not cheap, I'll probably put the '01 pump in the 'spare' motor, and the '00 pump in the good motor with your gears in it, and call it good. That pump is also not free of 'center wear' but... it should be ok, it's not nearly as bad.
The machine shop and I have come up with a way we think to mount this pump housing, machine it, then make specially machined gears which are even wider and have higher flow then the originals.

This is what we are doing for the project to date.

First we are going to Rockwell test the housings and see if their is a hardness difference between them. My suspicion is that when the housing changed the material quality went down which allowed the accelerated wear characteristics we were seeing at 40k miles that weren't present on an earlier model housing at 210k miles. This is so we can understand the lifespan of the gears, and how to make sure we maximize the lifespan of the gears & housings.

Second we are going to mount the housing bore, and floor machine the pump recess maximizing parallelness, perpendicularity, and flatness of all sides of the housing.

Third we're going to make a set of pump gears specifically for this recess, which fits at the clearances I've calculated for maximum flow and bearing efficiency.

Fourth the part is going to be tested with various cleaning techniques to remove deposits.

Fifth the housing is reassembled using new factory seals and shipped

We're thinking about making this a service if we can get it to set down on the mill, and machine efficiently.

The price around 250-325 w/billet oil pump gears depending on time.

This is the only real solution to controlling clearances or fixing a housing that has come out of spec instead of purchasing a new 400 dollar housing and a set of billet gears. The gears are larger because the recess they set in is also larger. This means they will flow 10-15% more then the stock gears to keep pressure more stable in the engine, along with being machined from billet to keep them indestructible.

Abe is the lucky winner of guniea pig status if he doesn't mind (free), otherwise his slot goes to my housing.

**Not responsible for ejected oil pump housings which result in destruction of the said "housing"
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