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WeaponX Coils & B.E. Coil On Plug Conversion PNP
So I've been working on my coil on plug aftermarket system. Its about 90% complete and I figured this would be a good time to gauge interest.
The system would be complete plug and play and would provide 150mJ of spark energy and multiple spark at lower engine speeds. That’s 50% more spark energy then the stock coils. These are the most powerful coil on plugs available as far as I know. This is a direct coil on plug, no short boot or connection between the sparkplug and the coil. The company claims a mpg increase and increases in horsepower. I'll have the unit on my car in about two weeks for direct testing though. Everything would be included, including the control box which sets dwell and takes care of other functions, the coils, and the wiring harness. Everything professionally wired to mil-specification, completely waterproof, and as easy as unplug spark plugs and stock coils then plug in new wiring harness and coil on plugs. I'm thinking this kit would be in the $325-$375 range. Let me know what you guys think. ** I only have this setup for my car at present so the 94-97 is what I would be working with in the next month or so. This would be available for the 90-93 and the 99-up BP's but I'd need donars so I can get the plugs made. |
Not to be a dick or anything, but what advantages do these have over savingtons setup? His are 300 shipped starting in his next batch, why would anyone want to pay more for the samething?
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Well, the price is high IMO. Granted, I don't know what the parts cost new, but as thesnowboarder said, you are high compared to the most expensive COP solution we have right now. Granted, I'll assume your coils are new vs. sav's being used. Not that they wear out or anything. Most here would rather have cheap COPs then the most expensive/bestest super high spark output.
NOT trying to start anything by the way, just incase you think I'm attacking you. I'm glad to see people going out and bringing more stuff to the market. Competition is good. But you gotta remember something. COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!) So offering the most powerful/most expensive setup is not what most are looking for. Now, if you made a trigger wheel setup for miatas, you'd sell the hell out of them. This has been 'talked' about before, but nobody ever did anything. I believe someone (maybe Joe Perez) has a blueprint posted on the forum for the hub adapter. Stock CAS's do suck, and trigger wheel setups are the future. So if you sold an affordable hub that a common, cheap, readily available trigger wheel would bolt up to, and an adapter to mount a cheap, readily available VR sensor to, then you could sell the hell out of them. You'd have customers standing in line. I know I've told you before to gauge interest and ask what people want. Give it a try one day. |
Well first and foremost I always find things I really want/need to put on my car. My car developed a miss about a month ago, and rather than go buy new spark plug wires, I decided I needed to really push ahead and finish development on the whole new ignition system I've been thinking about. :giggle: Makes sense right?? Well it did for me...
To sum it up: Lasts longer. Dwell Reducer built in. (Toyota coils are being overdriven 200-250% on stock dwell) About 50% more power to the plug then stock/Toyota coils.(No matter how much boost you are good) Multiple spark at low R.P.M. for better fuel mileage. New coils and easy supply of more. Comes with warrantee Mil-spec harness You can hook any set of coils to the control box as igniters and tach signal functions are not done in the coil anymore. There is a lot of hardware in this kit. 2 Igniters, a dwell reduction board, actually plugs not hacked stock stuff, a tachometer signal board, 4 coils, a milspec wiring harness, and then an enclosure where the stock coils used to sit for all the above electronics. I've also been trying to work with Savington, I think we're still on for joining forces. I wanted to offer the Toyota cops as the "street" version and this as the race version. Its not like I want to run the guy out. He's doing a hell of a job. I'm always down for whatever the community wants as long as there is enough people to warrant the time to help out. Just send me a PM, and I'll see what I can do. |
Could you sell just the coils, ignitors, and the plugs for the coils/ignitors so that all the people running MS could buy your new parts, then build their COPs setup? What kinda price would just those components run? Hell, I might be interested.
In for many pics. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 331806)
. COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!)
I support this project, interested to see how they look. Too bad I already have my Toyota COPs. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 331806)
...COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!...
Seriously though, COPs were specifically brought about as an inexpensive solution to the Miata's weak spark problem. We have to run ridiculously small spark gap to keep the cylinders firing. TravisR, I look forward to the results as well. I would be interested in a less expensive option (sans control box) for those of us with stand alone ECUs. |
Multiple spark sounds cool, and might be worth the extra $25 to $50 over what Savington is offering. I'll be watching for progress.
Since they will be completely plug and play, and offer better gas mileage you might have some interest from the wine and cheesers too. I'm sure they wouldn't mind going on their scenic tours using less gas. |
Originally Posted by cjernigan
(Post 331840)
Watch how you go about saying things like that. I can't run more than 14 psi on my stock '99 coils due to spark blow out with a .022" plug gap with NGK blue wires(they're new).
I support this project, interested to see how they look. Too bad I already have my Toyota COPs. Mazdilla, some people do things thinking they're improving something, but in fact are not. That's my point. And again, a cheaper setup would be awesome. Like just the COPs and ignitors w/ plugs and pins to wire them up. |
The big cost comes from the coils unfortunately. Right now I'm getting the coils for around 200 for the set of 4, and there isn't much I can do to change that. The wiring harness isn't that expensive and the electronics aren't that expensive. I think I have markup at 10%, which is really not much most companies do 20% at least and in the aftermarket car industries its between 40-50% and they sell you under engineered junk.
For the guys with the standalones I could do the coils igniters, and plugs w/o the harness, but right now the way the electronics are setup it is all on one board. So any savings I would get from not putting the other 2 features on there would just be in the cost of components and assembly so maybe 10-20 dollars off whatever the price is then another 40 or so for the harness because the plugs are expensive. I mean 125$-175$ for electronics (igniters, dwell, and tachometer), harness, and some very expensive to produce connectors is not that bad of a price I don't think. There are some slightly lower output coils that I could get from weapon-x that puts out about 120mJ and they would be 160$ for the set. These don't have multi-spark and don't have the omega main spark for high boost, but they are better than stock and the Toyota units. That would bring the price to 280-330, but I'm not much on half assing things. I want to sell the best, because that's what I would put on my car, and that's what I think other people would want to put on theirs. **also without getting into theory multi-spark has proven to create more torque and slight decrease of fuel consumption as Porsche I know for sure and others use multi-spark systems. They are more expensive units, and they do increase NOX so not every manufacturer wants to deal with the pollution standard implications. |
I'd be in for a set. If the multi-spark increased NOx significantly it might be handy to be able to disable it temporarily for those of us who have to make it through emmision tests (although I would guess it would decrease hydrocarbon and CO emmisions).
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 331810)
Mil-spec harness
Just out of curiosity... |
I don't have any made, I'm still waiting on the connectors.
The connectors from Mazda, and for the coils are fine as long as they pass the salt spray, vibration, waterproof, polarization, load, and fatigue tests. Which I know these do because they come from an automotive spec. (don't have much of a choice since these are PNP units anyways) The wire... MIL-22759/19 These are ETFE coated silver plated conductors for operating environments -50-150C. This wire is used in vehicles like the F-22 for lightweight electronics, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, and radiation resistance. The heat shrink is MIL-I-23053/18 Class 2 (-50-150C) MIL-I-3190/3 for the wire protector tubing. The 3 wire intersects all use the "diaper wrap" electrical tape join for obliquity, and these are sealed as well. The electronics box seals are all waterproof, but probably don't meet mil-spec. Electrical boxes always have to be made of steel and iridited to that lovely olive-drab color. My first test on the motor with the new coils after we verify they function properly is a 5 gallon bucket of water dumped on the installed electronics, I’ll know if I need to make any changes then. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
The wire...
MIL-22759/19 These are ETFE coated silver plated conductors for operating environments -50-150C. This wire is used in vehicles like the F-22 for lightweight electronics, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, and radiation resistance.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
The heat shrink is MIL-I-23053/18 Class 2 (-50-150C)
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
MIL-I-3190/3 for the wire protector tubing.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
The 3 wire intersects all use the "diaper wrap" electrical tape join for obliquity, and these are sealed as well.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
The electronics box seals are all waterproof, but probably don't meet mil-spec.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
Electrical boxes always have to be made of steel and iridited to that lovely olive-drab color.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335239)
My first test on the motor with the new coils after we verify they function properly is a 5 gallon bucket of water dumped on the installed electronics, I’ll know if I need to make any changes then.
There is a lot more to making a "Mil-Spec" wiring harness, than just grabbing stuff from work and throwing it together. If I were you, id just say it includes a well-built harness and call it a day. ;) |
I would be interested in a set, they have to be done before spring though lol
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Originally Posted by Archetype
(Post 335469)
Good standard wire quality choice...better than something from NAPA or Advance Auto's selection.
Standard choice. mental note though, heat shrink doesnt keep water out at the wire insertion point unless it uses a meltable seal, like a Raytheon butt splice for instance. It will deter, but not remove the possibility of water corrosion. Seriously, given location of the harness and the voltages required, this is utter and complete overkill (read: not required). Better choices are available here that could keep your costs down to where people might be tempted and still meet design requirements. This type of tubing is used for abrasion and heat resistance, as well as a retarded amount of dielectric strength (main factor). It doesnt like hydraulic fluid, and automotive oil is an untested parameter (wont be much different i assure you). You dont want to know what this stuff looks like after fluid contamination, nor the fact that after its soaked in, it does a good job of keeping the wires inside just as wet. The wires themselves (they are coated for a reason) work just fine in an open environment. Thats what they were designed for, to replace the aging and brittle yellow insulated crap of the 80's that was falling apart. String Tie would be a better choice here as it last longer for breakouts. The only way its coming off is cutting it. Well, that or improper tying procedure. How were you sealing these? Depends. No, they dont. Depending on where you mount your electronics this is completely pointless, and I will laugh my ass off when you find out what happens when you dump 70 degree water on a 200+ degree peice of aluminum. Or a 1000+ degree cast iron exhaust manifold. There is a lot more to making a "Mil-Spec" wiring harness, than just grabbing stuff from work and throwing it together. If I were you, id just say it includes a well-built harness and call it a day. ;) I've had to accommodate structurally for mil-spec harnesses on this C-130 project I was working on over the summer. I learned a lot about designing the harnesses from the double EE's and RF engineers. I won't nail a spec precisely, but its more mil-spec then not. Would be my luck and dig up an expert in the field. Gotta rain on my parade. All of our mounted electronics in the C-130 had to be either iridited steel, or if it was in some locations it could be weather anodized aluminum. I did all the structural stuff for the project so that was my field. I got the design params for a contractor. Could of been just a spec for that aircraft though. |
I'm no EE, so I don't fully understand what all this mill spec talk is about. But from reading Archetype's criticism, I gather he's saying, in short, "quit trying too hard and over-engineering your wiring for nothing. Just make it work." If so, +1. We'd rather be able to afford your products rather than look at pics of them and say "That's the best COP setup for a miata. If you sell your car, you can afford it." :)
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Im not here to rain on your parade, I just think its better that you properly advertise your product. Just because something is "mostly" something doesnt mean that it is that something. Like I said just state its a well built wiring harness, which it should be given someone who has experience doing this sort of thing.
I even gave you some good tips on how to improve your possible design to both lower cost and speed assembly process. Trust me its nothing that could hurt looking into. BTW, I have the NAVAIR TM on my computer if youre wondering ;) Ive also been working with these for the past decade http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTY...mi/AH-64DV.JPG |
BTW the Technical Manual is 1064 pages in case you were curious. :eek5:
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Originally Posted by Archetype
(Post 335485)
Im not here to rain on your parade, I just think its better that you properly advertise your product. Just because something is "mostly" something doesnt mean that it is that something. Like I said just state its a well built wiring harness, which it should be given someone who has experience doing this sort of thing.
I even gave you some good tips on how to improve your possible design to both lower cost and speed assembly process. Trust me its nothing that could hurt looking into. BTW, I have the NAVAIR TM on my computer if youre wondering ;) Ive also been working with these for the past decade http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTY...mi/AH-64DV.JPG |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 331810)
...
Dwell Reducer built in. (Toyota coils are being overdriven 200-250% on stock dwell) I haven't seen any failures here, but I've got an RX300 that runs the same units and three of them have died around 95k. This is a car that spends nearly all it's rpm range around 2-3krpm. |
will the cops be packaged better than the oil pump gears?
lol |
Weapon-X coils are built for the Mustang crowd which runs wasted spark up to 7000. Reportedly these are capable of 9000 R.P.M. +. I doubt they would stand that kind of abuse in a constant use situation they are nearly at continuous operation at 9000 R.P.M. with their spec dwell.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 335493)
will the cops be packaged better than the oil pump gears?
lol |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 335496)
Alright everyone might not get that, or be into hustler humor. Bubble wrap and the works...
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so... since this will have a dwell reducer included I can just set my MS to 5ms and let this rig take it from there?
Also, what's the ETA on this? I'll be in for a set of the coils/plugs (no harness/control) at a minimum... might buy the full kit... depends on how spendy I'm feeling when you are ready to take official orders. |
Yea thats the plan, I can't put an ETA out there until I get these plugs in. As soon as that comes I'd say no more then a week, and I'll know.
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Trav,
Have you considered a solution using LS7 coils? They can be had for about $25/ea new. Plus they are optimum with dwell in the 5.5ms range, pretty much what stock miata PCMs call for. |
I never looked into anything besides what was available in aftermarket. The dwell is set right, but the ones I"m looking at arn't full coil on plug, so I would have to find a short boot for them. I'm looking at weapon x to cut me a better price on bulk buy. If it just proves to high for people to pay I might look into something like that.
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2 Attachment(s)
You are correct, they are coil near plug, not coil on plug. However the short plug leads shouldn't be any trouble at all.
There are 2 different footprints for this coil, the "truck" type might be easier to mount than the car type. But the coils are both the same and they are cheap. I like your WeaponX idea; I'm just looking for a way to cut cost. |
I can definitely understand where you are coming from. I'm going to see what weaponx ends up quoting me. Once I have these connectors its really no extra trouble to do different coils. Wiring harnesses aren't to tough to design. Control boxes take some effort but, I'm pretty sure the megasquirt guys will want the control boxes for igniterless coils anyways.
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I think most of us are running without output drivers... so yeah, the majority of the MS users will want an "igniter box" so to speak.
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Plugs...
Plugs are here!
http://www.boundaryengineering.com/pimage/plug1.jpg Freshly designed, and hot from the manufacturer. I'll have the pins in soon for a full function test. |
I don't know how I missed this thread.
If you can provide these results:
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 331931)
To sum it up:
Lasts longer. Dwell Reducer built in. (Toyota coils are being overdriven 200-250% on stock dwell) About 50% more power to the plug then stock/Toyota coils.(No matter how much boost you are good) Multiple spark at low R.P.M. for better fuel mileage. New coils and easy supply of more. Comes with warrantee Mil-spec harness You can hook any set of coils to the control box as igniters and tach signal functions are not done in the coil anymore.
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 331931)
The big cost comes from the coils unfortunately. Right now I'm getting the coils for around 200 for the set of 4, and there isn't much I can do to change that. The wiring harness isn't that expensive and the electronics aren't that expensive. I think I have markup at 10%, which is really not much most companies do 20% at least and in the aftermarket car industries its between 40-50% and they sell you under engineered junk.
For the guys with the standalones I could do the coils igniters, and plugs w/o the harness, but right now the way the electronics are setup it is all on one board. So any savings I would get from not putting the other 2 features on there would just be in the cost of components and assembly so maybe 10-20 dollars off whatever the price is then another 40 or so for the harness because the plugs are expensive. I mean 125$-175$ for electronics (igniters, dwell, and tachometer), harness, and some very expensive to produce connectors is not that bad of a price I don't think. There are some slightly lower output coils that I could get from weapon-x that puts out about 120mJ and they would be 160$ for the set. These don't have multi-spark and don't have the omega main spark for high boost, but they are better than stock and the Toyota units. That would bring the price to 280-330, but I'm not much on half assing things. I want to sell the best, because that's what I would put on my car, and that's what I think other people would want to put on theirs. **also without getting into theory multi-spark has proven to create more torque and slight decrease of fuel consumption as Porsche I know for sure and others use multi-spark systems. They are more expensive units, and they do increase NOX so not every manufacturer wants to deal with the pollution standard implications. |
Updates?
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Everything never fails to take longer then expected, but coils are supposed to be here by the end of the week for another round of testing.
There has been a lot of revising the parts which all caused developement to take longer. A big one is to make the electronics more fail-proof, and make sure things really last. We also have built the 89-93 setup at the same time which originally was going to come later. We then focused on reducing the size of the electronics, so that the box will be the same size as the igniter for the 89-93, and bolt the exact same way. (for the older cars we'll use the same box, and supply a mounting for it somewhere.) Its coming just hold tight. A lot of engineering going on. |
Here is a picture of the coils. We've been using a hacked up harness to test these, here is our more professional start with the real connectors. We'll have the full harness done by next week. I can't wait to have the full system in.
http://www.boundaryengineering.com/cop1.jpg http://www.boundaryengineering.com/cop2.jpg Yea I know my bay is ugly, I'm hoping the intake manifold will brighten it up. :giggle: |
The prototype? :eek5:
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lookin good....
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WOW, those are pretty small, I had envisioned huge LS style coils sitting in the Valve Cover. Those put out some serious heat for such a small package.
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Originally Posted by Father LeadFoot
(Post 355564)
WOW, those are pretty small, I had envisioned huge LS style coils sitting in the Valve Cover. Those put out some serious heat for such a small package.
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 355608)
I can sell this kit as weight reduction and spark power.
;) |
Can't wait to pick a set of these up.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 355613)
Both being equal in performance gains. :bowrofl:
;) The boosted mustang guys were getting gains of 20whp with this setup, we could see 10-15. Plus you never have to change a sparkplug wire again. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 355624)
Yea just like your intake manifold mod right? :giggle:
The boosted mustang guys were getting gains of 20whp with this setup, we could see 10-15. Plus you never have to change a sparkplug wire again. And I still believe my intake manifold mod helped. Oh well, no dyno evidence. I know it's not ideal though and I want to change it. Quit wasting your time and get me a 99' intake manifold built (that might actually do something for performance) and I might just buy one. :) |
We are packing twice as much into our cylinders as they are and I gauruntee you our coils are no better. I just talked to mike here in louisville he is running .023 gap just make sure it doesn't misfire. There is a problem here, and whatever the gap your running now is, you can pretty much double it with this COP setup(maybe even more). You will gain power off of this ignition, and you will never misfire.
Your just sore because that intake manifold isn't done yet. The plans are laid, I'm waiting on manufacturers. You guys do know I've now got 5 different manufacturers turning out prototypes for Miata parts. :giggle: I can lay plans much faster then they can make them. |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 355639)
We are packing twice as much into our cylinders as they are and I gauruntee you our coils are no better. I just talked to mike here in louisville he is running .023 gap just make sure it doesn't misfire. There is a problem here, and whatever the gap your running now is, you can pretty much double it with this COP setup(maybe even more). You will gain power off of this ignition, and you will never misfire.
Your just sore because that intake manifold isn't done yet. The plans are laid, I'm waiting on manufacturers. You guys do know I've now got 5 different manufacturers turning out prototypes for Miata parts. :giggle: I can lay plans much faster then they can make them. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 355642)
You got a 99' intake manifold laid out just waiting on it to be manufactured? You suck for making one for a NA head first, you know that right? :giggle: I still don't get that. Next you can make a badass LSD for a 6" diff!
Keep dreaming pat. Yea the 94 is laid out, now the 99 isn't, but that's emilio's fault. (don't mean to shove blame ;) ) We'll have the 99 together soon enough. If I get the 99 drawn up before my composite guy gets to the 94 I'll have him make that one first. Quit thread jacking, back to cop setups. |
So is there an ETA or a list of dibbs on the first sets?
I am really gonna need these this spring. |
ETA could be announced after the carbon fiber cam gears come out. I'll know more about how long until a full production unit can be had.
I can take dibbs at anytime though. |
i work at a shop called race related and we mostly work on the modular motor mustangs, one of my fellow employees owns an 03 mach1 which he just installed wepon x coils on and unfortunately the car ran like shit, it miss fires and stumbled and was just terrible.
hopefully the same issue dosnt arise here. in order to cut cost the stock mod motor coils might work well. |
We haven't had any such problems. I know alot of "weird" things happen on the mustangs. I couldn't imagine anything like that happening unless the install went wrong, or some of the coils were manufactured incorrectly.
The physics principle behind a coil is extremely simple. You've got two silenoids (coils of wire). One coil is larger then the other coil, and the coils are ontop of each other. Current runs through the primary coil and creates a magnetic field. When that current is the reversed the change in magnetic field on the inner coil of wire creats a tremendous amount of voltage and current and causes a spark to fire. I don't even know how you could manage to manufacture that wrong. Forget to put in one of the coils??? This isn't exactly rocket science. http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/...oil/index.html |
Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 357226)
ETA could be announced after the carbon fiber cam gears come out. I'll know more about how long until a full production unit can be had.
I can take dibbs at anytime though. Aslong as my lazy ass doesn't have to do any wiring and can pnp these with my mspnp I'm in. |
Ok, the newest board is going to be bench tested today, and this is final version! So as long as everything goes well we will have this on a car working in full production form before next week. Expect them to go on sale in about a week and a half!
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 367076)
Ok, the newest board is going to be bench tested today, and this is final version! So as long as everything goes well we will have this on a car working in full production form before next week. Expect them to go on sale in about a week and a half!
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Time for an update buddy!
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I'm kicking this thing down the road as fast as I can!! Its coming...
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Originally Posted by TravisR
(Post 376247)
I'm kicking this thing down the road as fast as I can!! Its coming...
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1 Attachment(s)
It'll be done before then certainly! Everything always takes longer then expected. For now, a screen shot of a sparkplug fired by our system. It sounds like a .22 gunshot!
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waiting impatiently. please let me know when these are done so i can be one of the first people to use them :)
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