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Old 05-19-2013, 02:33 PM   #1
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Default Brand new Hydra wideband not responding

Friday i dropped my car off to Ludwig Motorsports, and drove back down there again yesterday to dyno tune the car in an effort to make it run and drive worth a damn.

We were stopped in our tracks by the fact that the wideband refuses (at least according to the real time viewer in Hydra software, as well as datalogging) to output anything other than 14.7:1 afr when the car is running.

Normally i'd say that's pretty awesome to have it that rock steady at idle, but when you take enough fuel out of the idle cells that the car DIES from being too lean and we still see 14.7:1 afr, then it's not so awesome.

Double and triple checked that the sensor was installed correctly, and it was. It won't calibrate.

In free-air calibration it's still showing 14.7. In order to hit the target 20.7-20.8, Wego Zero Cal has to be set to 160 (well over what Hydra says is ok, they specify a 126-130 range), and the Wego Grad Cal has to be set to 255. (maxed out.)

Obviously, this then causes an issue when the wideband is plugged back in, and now when the car is running, it's showing it running at 20.7:1. Which, when we fatten the cells up enough that it's spitting raw fuel on the floor behind the car, is indication that it's not accurate.



Any ideas? This is a brand new sensor from FM. This is a Hydra 2.5. I'm taking a 7,000 mile trip in this car in about 4 weeks, so sending out the ECU is not an option at this point. How likely is it that a high quality sensor such as this was DOA? How likely is it that the wideband controller in Hydra is dead?

Or is there something that we missed? Does it matter if it's the left or right module that is set for "14.7 Wide band HEGO?"
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:46 PM   #2
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Yes it must be set to the left source.

"Obviously, this then causes an issue when the wideband is plugged back in, and now when the car is running, it's showing it running at 20.7:1. Which, when we fatten the cells up enough that it's spitting raw fuel on the floor behind the car, is indication that it's not accurate."

I may be miss reading this but here it goes. If your unplugging your sensor shen you do a free air calc then that is your issues. The WB should be plugged in and in open air (I hang mine form my passenger sun visor) and wait until it comes up to temp. You will see this by its going from 14.7 at cold and rising (supposed to be 20.5) then you change the calibration to get it to 20.5.

Let me know if im mistaken and ill diag it further.

Also I made the upgrade from 2.5 to 2.7 and the difference was dramatic, got the ebc figured out and more. Much smoother much better MPG Autotuning LLT is awesome.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:16 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyonfive View Post
Yes it must be set to the left source.

"Obviously, this then causes an issue when the wideband is plugged back in, and now when the car is running, it's showing it running at 20.7:1. Which, when we fatten the cells up enough that it's spitting raw fuel on the floor behind the car, is indication that it's not accurate."

I may be miss reading this but here it goes. If your unplugging your sensor shen you do a free air calc then that is your issues. The WB should be plugged in and in open air (I hang mine form my passenger sun visor) and wait until it comes up to temp. You will see this by its going from 14.7 at cold and rising (supposed to be 20.5) then you change the calibration to get it to 20.5.

Let me know if im mistaken and ill diag it further.

Also I made the upgrade from 2.5 to 2.7 and the difference was dramatic, got the ebc figured out and more. Much smoother much better MPG Autotuning LLT is awesome.
Ok so we got the left source thing right.

And yeah, you're miss-reading, or i didn't type clearly.

We first unplugged the sensor from the Hydra harness and performed the Wego Zero Cal, which was already at 14.7, so no adjustment.

Then plugging the sensor back in, we performed free-air calibration, and it will NOT move from 14.7 unless messing with the Wego Grad Cal AND Wego Zero Cal.

No matter what the car is doing while the sensor is in the exhaust, it's showing 14.7 on the real time and logs. Flatline. No response at all.



I'm not going to upgrade to 2.7. I don't have the money, and i'm already pretty shitty that i had to pay $275 for a wideband sensor in the first place, and it doesn't even work. There's been documented cases of EBC working on 2.5 as well, but EBC isn't something i care about. :P



I appreciate any help with this POS. I'll be calling FM on monday to see if there's anything that can be done with the DOA sensor (at least DOA as far as i can tell.).
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:24 PM   #4
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side note: I DONT USE A $275 sensor. I use a regular L2h2 or whatever is in the sticky and I bought from the guy who makes the mr2 version a plug (standard) with wires. Now i can just plug in wideband sensors from napa or where ever. Might save you 150 bucks if you can return your FM one. Moving on..... Ill help you any way I can (any chance your in so cal?)

Now if your WB isnt heating up it will not move from 14.7. Does it get hot?

If it doesnt get hot then thats your problem. Im assuming you had one in there already working and it stopped so you replaced it. If its never worked check your wiring, the pins are the same from 2.5 to 2.7

If your not getting 12 positive volts at the red harness wire which is the positive heater wire then your issue is within the hydra. Chances are then that the circuit is toast. When this happened in mine the new 02 was ok and the issue was with the hydra. As a 2.5 is out of warranty then you might as well crack the box and trace it yourself or send it out to hydra when you can for $100= bucks if it can be fixed.

Last edited by Canyonfive; 05-19-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:10 PM   #5
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It gets hot. Heater circuit is functional.

And yes, if I have to buy another sensor in an effort to get one that works, then I'll buy the setup from KO, or see if I can't find out more about what vtjballeng mentioned in the sensor part number thread about running a Powerdex as an afr input to Hydra.

Anyways, end story is that the heater is working but the wideband won't calibrate or respond at all.

Oh, and I'm in Indy, the car DID come from Socal, though.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:14 PM   #6
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Didn't read walls of text.

But

Had exactly same thing happen to a buddy's AEM uego: 14.7 no matter what. Turned out to be one of the pins/wires on the plug near the controller was somehow pulled out and not making contact. Pushed it back in and voila.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Didn't read walls of text.

But

Had exactly same thing happen to a buddy's AEM uego: 14.7 no matter what. Turned out to be one of the pins/wires on the plug near the controller was somehow pulled out and not making contact. Pushed it back in and voila.
that was going to be my next response. If it heats up then your harness is loose. try pulling on the WB leads at the hydra plug. If they dont or arent clicked in they they wont make good contact with the pin. On my harness i had to pry out the locking tabs so they lock in AND touch the male pin on the hydra,
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:52 AM   #8
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Alrighty thanks, i'll see if i can get Chris to check that (car is 2 hours south of me right now). I may just see if he can weigh in on this thread because i'm a bit over my head, i've already learned more about Hydra than i ever cared to.

I appreciate the help so far, and i'm sure i'll be bugging you guys again shortly.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:30 AM   #9
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Called FM yesterday, the only way to test for sure if it's the wideband or onboard controller that's bad is to send it in and have Jeremy bench test the setup.

Probably can't do that on my time frame, and even if the sensor ended up testing bad, what am i going to do? Got a DOA wideband, i buy another expensive sensor and hope it's good? (I don't expect FM to replace the sensor even if it were verified to be bad. I bought this thing over a year and a half ago and am just now installing it.) I'd rather just put the money towards a new EMS at that point.

We're going to check the connection at the plugs one more time, and if it's good and it's just truly not working, we're just going to tune the car using the wideband on the dyno.




Just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid... Are these the ONLY steps that need to be done to make the wideband output show up in Hydra?

1) Pin new wideband harness into Hydra plugs
2) Calibrate Zero Cal to show 14.7 (Sensor unplugged)
3) Free air calibrate to show 20.7-20.8 using wego grad cal

And somewhere in there "turn on" "14.7 Wide Band Hego" in Closed Loop setup? After selecting that as a sensor source (Are we sure it doesn't matter if it's left or right?), do we just hit "OK?"

Or is there something else that has to be done that we're missing?
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:43 PM   #10
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1) Pin new wideband harness into Hydra plugs
2) Enable WB02
2) Calibrate Zero Cal to show 14.7 (Sensor unplugged)
3) Free air calibrate to show 20.7-20.8 using wego grad cal

Are you sure its plugged in per the manual? Are the connectors making good contact with the hydra pins? Mine was not when i first installed it.

Hydra 2.5 Setup Manual from FM

When switching from WBO2 to NBO2, you have to alter some settings in the Hydra to tell it
what to pay attention to. In Select -> Settings -> Closed Loop you have the following:
For the WBO2- check Enable Closed Loop, make your lower RPM limit 1500 since the WB
can't tune idle and your upper RPM limit the same as where your rev limiter is set. If your car
idles above 1500 for some reason (say with AC on), set the minimum to just above your high
idle speed. Check Wideband Target Table for the left and right channel. The left channel is
what is used in 4 cylinder and straight 6 engines. Note- both the left and right would be used in
a V6 or a V8. Therefore the right channel is not used in the Miata, but we check it anyway as
not to confuse the Hydra. Of course, if you are auto tuning you will also need to check Enable
Auto-tune and have the laptop running. (Long Term Learning does not apply to the WBO2.)
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canyonfive View Post

Are you sure its plugged in per the manual? Are the connectors making good contact with the hydra pins? Mine was not when i first installed it.

Hydra 2.5 Setup Manual from FM

When switching from WBO2 to NBO2, you have to alter some settings in the Hydra to tell it
what to pay attention to. In Select -> Settings -> Closed Loop you have the following:
For the WBO2- check Enable Closed Loop, make your lower RPM limit 1500 since the WB
can't tune idle and your upper RPM limit the same as where your rev limiter is set. If your car
idles above 1500 for some reason (say with AC on), set the minimum to just above your high
idle speed. Check Wideband Target Table for the left and right channel. The left channel is
what is used in 4 cylinder and straight 6 engines. Note- both the left and right would be used in
a V6 or a V8. Therefore the right channel is not used in the Miata, but we check it anyway as
not to confuse the Hydra. Of course, if you are auto tuning you will also need to check Enable
Auto-tune and have the laptop running. (Long Term Learning does not apply to the WBO2.)
The harness is definitely plugged into the right locations, will re-check to make sure they're all making connection.


Sounds like we got setup right, at least. Or at least there's nothing we could have messed up in settings to get the thing to just stay flat-lining at 14.7 even when free-air calibrating.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:44 PM   #12
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I suppose i should ask my setup question differently:

Let's say theoretically, if one were to only want to use the wbo2 for logging/real time display in the Hydra "dashboard," do ANY settings within Hydra need to be changed?

Will any of the settings listed above have ANY bearing on whether or not the "AFR" field on the real time display will display anything other than 14.7?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:12 PM   #13
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Turns out i didn't post the resolution to this.


Fixed it.


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Brand new Hydra wideband not responding-1000.jpg  
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:28 PM   #14
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Do you live in Australia?
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Old 07-29-2013, 07:29 PM   #15
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Why? Is my picture upside down?
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