Hydra Nemesis Discontinued !!!!???
08-13-2020, 09:46 AM
#42
and for those of you that think the hydra is crap ...go tell that to phil while he is on the podium winning time attack events with the hydra ..I would put phils tuning with the hydra vs any megasquirt or cobb tuner with a subaru or now ls in his LS scion ..you miata guys don't need to worry phil didn't buy the rights to discontinue the hydra that he uses in both his time attack cars his LS scion and STi ..the only reason the cobb is more popular is because every tuner in the nation knows how to tune with it .most tuners talk crap about the hydra simply because they haven't got the knowledge to tune with it .Phil personally tunes my STi with the hydra and mine has been running 700whp for 4 years now
This, however, is a Miata-specific board and they never worked very well in Miata land because it was competing with many other ecus because we have something called "support." Hydra for a very long time was nearly "the only" ECU if you wanted a standalone on a Subaru or Toyota, so very obvious logic dictates that they would be more popular on those platforms than ours.
Welcome, thanks for posting, now GTFO.
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09-07-2020, 12:42 PM
#54
Newb
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 8
Total Cats: 3
As the former (or possibly still) Exclusive dealer for the Toyota MR2 for Hydra (I haven't sold one since 2017), and long time Hydra tuner (I've tuned every model they made), I feel I can maybe shed a little more light on this subject. Currently as far as I know the main connector for the Hydra that has been used since the first Hydra 2.0 version (a GM Delphi ECU header) is discontinued, so I don't see any more being made unless the hardware gets updated. The software and firmware of the 2.7 (which debuted in 2010) stopped receiving updates around early 2014 but still sports some features that the MS does not. Support from experienced tuners/dealers was the model Hydra went with (hence exclusive dealers) so that the support a customer received was theoretically from a very experienced source. I agree with the sentiment that the older version Hydras are extremely out of date at this point and I wouldn't even consider getting one. After a couple bad experiences, I won't tune any versions of the Hydra older than the 2.7 as they often have issues that can't be resolved by just tuning. Even the 2.7s sometimes have issues, and when they do, the support from Phil is not the quickest as Hydra isn't his sole business, nor is it inexpensive to diagnose (minimum $150 charge) as the units were only ever sold with a 1 year warranty. I have also never liked the need to use an adapter harness which often cheapens the overall install in my opinion.
I do, however, disagree with the idea that the megasquirt is somehow superior in every way. The Hydra has per-cylinder knock detection, and response, IAC trimming delays for fan, ac, and alternator control, peak and hold injector drivers, onboard 4 bar map sensor and internal NTK wideband controller. The interface seem intuitive to me (probably due to long time use), though it does lack the ability to customize and refreshes only at 10-12Hz. The results with a Hydra in the right hands often results in a much more OEM feel and level of tune from my experience thanks in part to the very good fuel pulse drivers, resolution, and large up to 32x32 fuel and timing tables. Hydras were shipped for the Miata from FM and often installed and ran right out of the box with little to no tuning at all in many cases. Several that i tuned had been run for months or years before the customer decided to seek out a tuner to extract more power, or resolve some issue. That said, it is very dated at this point, and many other ecu platforms have moved on. If you have a problem with your Hydra and it isn't a simple tuning related issue, I would definitley look at replacing it with something else.
The MS has been receiving continuous support and updating since the late 90s and still doesn't feel fully "right". The MS I think *can* get to an OEM feel and level of refinement, but any type of base is far from this level of refinement that I've ever seen (why does every base map coolant temp scale have 6 values below 100°F and nothing above 176°F for example). For the person paying a tuner by the hour, taking more time to get to a desired result can end up costing more if the base isn't as good. For the DIY-er, however, that time is not as much of an issue, and I feel the MS is largely targeted to this market. Also it can be a big bonus for someone starting out or tyring to learn how to tune to have a large community of users for sure. The biggest problem is that not many of these users has tuned hundreds or thousands of ecus, so they don't necessarily get the same level of support as from someone who has. From the company standpoint, there is no "the buck stops here" for tuning support with Megasquirt. Hardware support is a little better, but even then when I had sold one unit that ended up having issues, we spent hours ruling out issues at my vendor's request before they would admit a problem with the ECU (actually installed a Hydra on a vehicle and had no problems thereby proving to them their ecu was at fault). I think the main issues stem from the dispersed development and support of the product: one company invented the basic architecture of the EMS, another company licenced and produced the product for particular applications, and another company wrote the software and is still updating it (as a hobby/side gig) as far as I can tell. Knock detection involved headphones or turning a screw inside of the ecu to try and dial in some level of detection. In my opinion as a tuner, if I'm using a screwdriver, it better be to adjust a throttle blade and not the EMS I'm trying to tune.
I do, however, disagree with the idea that the megasquirt is somehow superior in every way. The Hydra has per-cylinder knock detection, and response, IAC trimming delays for fan, ac, and alternator control, peak and hold injector drivers, onboard 4 bar map sensor and internal NTK wideband controller. The interface seem intuitive to me (probably due to long time use), though it does lack the ability to customize and refreshes only at 10-12Hz. The results with a Hydra in the right hands often results in a much more OEM feel and level of tune from my experience thanks in part to the very good fuel pulse drivers, resolution, and large up to 32x32 fuel and timing tables. Hydras were shipped for the Miata from FM and often installed and ran right out of the box with little to no tuning at all in many cases. Several that i tuned had been run for months or years before the customer decided to seek out a tuner to extract more power, or resolve some issue. That said, it is very dated at this point, and many other ecu platforms have moved on. If you have a problem with your Hydra and it isn't a simple tuning related issue, I would definitley look at replacing it with something else.
The MS has been receiving continuous support and updating since the late 90s and still doesn't feel fully "right". The MS I think *can* get to an OEM feel and level of refinement, but any type of base is far from this level of refinement that I've ever seen (why does every base map coolant temp scale have 6 values below 100°F and nothing above 176°F for example). For the person paying a tuner by the hour, taking more time to get to a desired result can end up costing more if the base isn't as good. For the DIY-er, however, that time is not as much of an issue, and I feel the MS is largely targeted to this market. Also it can be a big bonus for someone starting out or tyring to learn how to tune to have a large community of users for sure. The biggest problem is that not many of these users has tuned hundreds or thousands of ecus, so they don't necessarily get the same level of support as from someone who has. From the company standpoint, there is no "the buck stops here" for tuning support with Megasquirt. Hardware support is a little better, but even then when I had sold one unit that ended up having issues, we spent hours ruling out issues at my vendor's request before they would admit a problem with the ECU (actually installed a Hydra on a vehicle and had no problems thereby proving to them their ecu was at fault). I think the main issues stem from the dispersed development and support of the product: one company invented the basic architecture of the EMS, another company licenced and produced the product for particular applications, and another company wrote the software and is still updating it (as a hobby/side gig) as far as I can tell. Knock detection involved headphones or turning a screw inside of the ecu to try and dial in some level of detection. In my opinion as a tuner, if I'm using a screwdriver, it better be to adjust a throttle blade and not the EMS I'm trying to tune.
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09-07-2020, 02:08 PM
#55
Have you not seen a megasquirt since 2001? Because I don't think any have used a pot on knock since then. MS3 has per cylinder knock, windowing, adjustable gains, dual knock input all settable in software.
NTK widebands suck donkey *****, 90's tech and slow and sensitive as hell. 4 bar? Makes sense for a miata. IAC volt trimming, MS2/3 has that. Fan idle, MS2/3 has, alt control, MS3 has, what does a miata need with peak and hold? You could make a 32x16 or 16x32 table if you wanted in MS3, or flex blend it. Besides the table size, MS3 has hydra beat on all counts.
But, 3+ years of skipping crank to run taper didn't work like it was supposed to on the most modern MS3 firmware. My next ecu will be neither because they honestly both suck. MS3 pro is dangerously close in price to competent ECUs with firmware written by more than one person...
NTK widebands suck donkey *****, 90's tech and slow and sensitive as hell. 4 bar? Makes sense for a miata. IAC volt trimming, MS2/3 has that. Fan idle, MS2/3 has, alt control, MS3 has, what does a miata need with peak and hold? You could make a 32x16 or 16x32 table if you wanted in MS3, or flex blend it. Besides the table size, MS3 has hydra beat on all counts.
But, 3+ years of skipping crank to run taper didn't work like it was supposed to on the most modern MS3 firmware. My next ecu will be neither because they honestly both suck. MS3 pro is dangerously close in price to competent ECUs with firmware written by more than one person...
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09-08-2020, 08:57 PM
#57
I can tune better than the tuning support i received on my Hydra for many dollars.
And i can't tune worth a **** in my eyes. The "value" in relying upon your dealers to provide tuning support is flawed at best. I've known/followed you since the Toyota days and i'm aware that you're likely a far cry from who i used, but it also wouldn't have occurred to most of us to contact you for Hydra stuff years ago when Hydra was "in its prime" other than when i believe i was involved with finding out around 2012/2013 that you were THE place to go to get replacement widebands for these things that constantly burned out expensive "proprietary" widebands due to the absolutely trash onboard controllers. (Or the horrible cheesy modifications made to the off the shelf sensor to make it "proprietary.")
And i can't tune worth a **** in my eyes. The "value" in relying upon your dealers to provide tuning support is flawed at best. I've known/followed you since the Toyota days and i'm aware that you're likely a far cry from who i used, but it also wouldn't have occurred to most of us to contact you for Hydra stuff years ago when Hydra was "in its prime" other than when i believe i was involved with finding out around 2012/2013 that you were THE place to go to get replacement widebands for these things that constantly burned out expensive "proprietary" widebands due to the absolutely trash onboard controllers. (Or the horrible cheesy modifications made to the off the shelf sensor to make it "proprietary.")
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09-08-2020, 10:16 PM
#58
Tweaking Enginerd
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Meh, any "tuner" who complains about a basemap for a full stand-alone does a pretty decent job of establishing the value of anything else they may try to contribute.
in for his next "crank-no-start" post
in for his next "crank-no-start" post
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