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Old 02-16-2010, 11:50 PM   #41
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Springfield Armory .40 SW subcompact. I love it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:52 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by rmcelwee View Post
Yes, in a holster similar to this. I practice pulling the gun out (impossible to do in jeans if I am sitting) and firing three quick shots from the hip without aiming.
Do you just slip that into your back pocket? While I've never tried to pull something like that out of my pocket quickly that holster almost seems like it could be a hindrance?
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Old 02-17-2010, 07:38 AM   #43
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Do you just slip that into your back pocket? While I've never tried to pull something like that out of my pocket quickly that holster almost seems like it could be a hindrance?
Front pocket. The holster is kind of sticky so it will stay in the pocket when you remove the gun. For an extra measure I put my left hand on the outside of the pocket to kind of hold it in there when I draw the weapon. Some carry it like that without a holster but I use the holster to make sure that nothing can get to the trigger (nothing ever goes in that pocket but the gun) and to keep pocket lint off it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:36 AM   #44
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Thats my Keltec in its pocket holster and my Walther PPKS in a CrossBreed Supertuck.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:59 AM   #45
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Here's what you really need to be carrying, .500 S&W Magnum! 700 Grains at 1200 FPS! I'm been joking around with the idea of getting a shoulder holster for carry. The thing is a beast, you really don't want to shoot it more than a few rounds at a time. Gonzo!
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:10 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by thymer View Post
.45 acp 230 grains @ 900fps is about the best people stopper out there. Tons of knock down force and no over-penetration (like 9mm does).
False, false and false. No handgun round is "the best people stopper". Handguns rounds are not a terribly effective man stopper, shot placement is key. Unless you disrupt the CNS, a .45ACP, .45GAP, .40S&W, .357SIG, 9mm, etc will have similar terminal performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
Originally Posted by DocGKR
When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:



As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com .



Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
Shoot what you feel comfortable with.

With that said...

I normally have an XD9 @ 3 o'clock (soon to be an M&P 9 once the PT.com ones are in) and a Ruger LCP in front left pocket.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:11 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thymer View Post
Here's what you really need to be carrying, .500 S&W Magnum! 700 Grains at 1200 FPS! I'm been joking around with the idea of getting a shoulder holster for carry. The thing is a beast, you really don't want to shoot it more than a few rounds at a time. Gonzo!
I am pretty sure I could not afford ammo for that thing. I really need to come visit you one day and check out your gun collection. You seem like you have a ton of fun toys.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:36 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradC View Post
False, false and false. No handgun round is "the best people stopper". Handguns rounds are not a terribly effective man stopper, shot placement is key. Unless you disrupt the CNS, a .45ACP, .45GAP, .40S&W, .357SIG, 9mm, etc will have similar terminal performance.



Shoot what you feel comfortable with.

With that said...

I normally have an XD9 @ 3 o'clock (soon to be an M&P 9 once the PT.com ones are in) and a Ruger LCP in front left pocket.

Good read thanks.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:55 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by SKMetalworks View Post
Good read thanks.
No prob.

Please note, I am not trying to talk **** on any caliber or sway you in any direction. I am just trying to point out the fallacy of the "bad guy" flying out a window when hit by the magic .45ACP.

Carry whatever you like that runs reliably and that you can make fast, accurate hits with.

Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire...

Some good drills for increasing proficiency can be found at - pistol-training.com
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradC View Post
False, false and false. No handgun round is "the best people stopper". Handguns rounds are not a terribly effective man stopper, shot placement is key. Unless you disrupt the CNS, a .45ACP, .45GAP, .40S&W, .357SIG, 9mm, etc will have similar terminal performance.

Shoot what you feel comfortable with.
Actually that is not completely accurate. I do agree that handgun bullets are normally not the best when it comes to immediate incapacitation, selecting the right ammuntion and caliber [I]can[I] make it a solid "people stopper".

The picture you quoted is a good comparison to showcase penetration which is definetly important, but almost all ammo these days will penetrate 12" as that has become the standard the FBI has set for LEO rounds which defense rounds are based off of, but penetration is not everything.

You should account for hyrdostatic shock which is damage caused by a large enough ballistic pressure wave and is solely dependent on energy transfer of the bullet. This causes brain hemorrhages from chest wounds and if strong enough, neural damage to to hypothalamus and hippocampus.

At about 300ft/lbs(500psi pressure wave) of energy is when its chances of occuring are more likely, they more energy the better chance you have of inducing a hemorrhage/neural damage, 500ft/lbs just about guarntees it. That is what will immediately "stop people", so while you were right about only damage to the CNS will effectively stop people in their tracks, the terminal velocity of all those rounds are not that similar and cannot be measured by penetration alone. wheww that was long winded

Now with all that said, I totally agree with you that it is more important to be a good, fast shot with whatever caliber you choose than to choose a "better" caliber which you can't use well.

Personally, I am a great shot with my .45 and no it won't send you flying out a window like in the movies but it does carry superior ballistic capabilities to a lot of other roundsand has proven so over the 100 years it has been around, I also like my .40s&w and it has even better ballistics than my .45. I also want to get a 10mm . But the right choice ammunition for even the so-called "measley" 9mm can be a very good choice for defense.

here is a link to a chart displaying different energy levels of bullets(disregard the AIT and one shot stop% columns as those have been proven faulty)
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm


p.s. DO NOT DRY FIRE THE GUN. repeated dry firing can cause damage to the firearm. No gun was meant to be dry fired. Buy some snap caps and then you can practice all day long without damaging your gun.

edit: website for snap caps, they're pretty cheap too: http://www.triplek.com/Products/id/38/grp/410/prd/334/
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by thymer View Post
Here's what you really need to be carrying, .500 S&W Magnum! 700 Grains at 1200 FPS! I'm been joking around with the idea of getting a shoulder holster for carry. The thing is a beast, you really don't want to shoot it more than a few rounds at a time. Gonzo!
My friend has a 450 Casull that gun didn't kick like you would think that it would but it did have some crazy percusion and it moved some air. The most impressive thing was how accurate it was at distance. You could literally shoot the wings off a nats with it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:24 PM   #52
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I can't think of any modern centerfire pistols that risk serious damage from dry-firing. Plenty of pistols actually require dry-firing in order to de-**** for takedown procedures. If you are set on dry-firing several hundred times every day, then sure, snap caps will save some potential wear on the firing pin or striker. But dry-firing centerfire pistols isn't really that risky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 View Post
p.s. DO NOT DRY FIRE THE GUN. repeated dry firing can cause damage to the firearm. No gun was meant to be dry fired. Buy some snap caps and then you can practice all day long without damaging your gun.

edit: website for snap caps, they're pretty cheap too: Gun Holsters and Gun Magazines by Triple K :: Plastic Snap Caps
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Old 02-17-2010, 02:03 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 View Post
Actually that is not completely accurate....
You should account for hyrdostatic shock which is damage caused by a large enough ballistic pressure wave and is solely dependent on energy transfer of the bullet. This causes brain hemorrhages from chest wounds and if strong enough, neural damage to to hypothalamus and hippocampus.
Please go back and read the linked .pdf in my post.

To summarize:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Urey Patrick FBI from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"
"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."
Also, again from "DocGKR" (DocGKR is Dr Gary Roberts, and he has been involved in the scientific research of terminal performance for many years.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
kinetic energy is certainly important, as it is what allows the projectile to do work, however, in itself kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism. On the other hand, temporary cavity is certainly an important wounding mechanism, especially in rifle calibers, as well as larger handgun calibers, however, with service handgun calibers, it is generally too small to cause significant wounding effects.
Another source - The Myth of Energy Transfer


Quote:
Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 View Post
p.s. DO NOT DRY FIRE THE GUN. repeated dry firing can cause damage to the firearm. No gun was meant to be dry fired. Buy some snap caps and then you can practice all day long without damaging your gun.
The general assumption, as pointed out elsewhere is that any modern center-fire pistol can withstand dry fire. Don't dry fire a rimfire. Use snap caps if that's what tickles your pickle.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BradC View Post
Don't dry fire a rimfire. Use snap caps if that's what tickles your pickle.
Although I do not have an electronic copy sitting here, the Ruger 10/22 manual specifically states that it is ok to dry fire the rifle. Not trying to argue, just pointing out there is at least one rimfire that it does not hurt.

FWIW, I do my best to not dry fire a rifle but I have talked to many people with the opinion "if it damages the firing pin I'll just spend $3 to buy another one". This would work with most guns but I just spent $45 replacing the pin on my dad's old .22
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by BradC View Post
Please go back and read the linked .pdf in my post.

To summarize:

Also, again from "DocGKR" (DocGKR is Dr Gary Roberts, and he has been involved in the scientific research of terminal performance for many years.)

Another source - The Myth of Energy Transfer


The general assumption, as pointed out elsewhere is that any modern center-fire pistol can withstand dry fire. Don't dry fire a rimfire. Use snap caps if that's what tickles your pickle.
Great theory but...

First of all, of course a pistol round isn't going to have the knock-down force of a MBR round or the volume of a SMG. A pistol is only used to fight your way to a rifle. Unfortunately it's tough to conceal carry a m14, Krinkov, or an M4. My point is, the bigger the hole the better. If you can control the .45 (you can, anyone can) then why not choose the larger caliber. Bigger holes, quicker blood loss, you win. If you are going to choose the 9mm why not keep going? .380, .32, .25auto? I want the biggest **** I can effectively place on target.

Whatever you choose though, make sure you can use it before you carry it. Practice practice practice. You need to be able to manipulate the controls, clear FTF's, reload, and fire instinctively on the move as you won't have time to think about it.
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:55 PM   #56
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Just ordered my Glock 26 with night sights!
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