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Old 03-10-2006, 09:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medisyn
I think it comes town to cost for the average joe to test out several intercoolers turbo's etc. If I had the time and resources (well I have the time ha.) I would do it. Jimb did this a while ago and it was pretty interesting to see. It would be nice if FM did some sort of test to see what the temps were before and after intercooler. (I would love to see their 1000 dollar greddy IC kit vs Jimb's with a starion or even a saab!)
You have the have the same ambient temperature in all the tests and that sometimes makes it difficult. You have to make sure you give all the intercoolers the same load of hot air from the turbo.

Yes a lot of testing needs to be done to know the answer. The only problem is a lot of Miata.net'ers are unwilling to try new things. They would like to follow the same path as others. Which isnt really a bad idea but thats why almost every suspension/power modded miata all have very simular mods. Look how many guys are running t28's, 15g or smaller turbos and how few are running larger turbo's. Also look how everyone follows the allignment settings of like 2 guys on miata.net. Hell there is a metric crapload of miata's useing kyb-agx's (I am on this list but hey I got them cheap!) and koni's (there are a few others too). Is there a better shock out there? Proabably but is anybody willing to try something that hasnt been tried and posted on miata.net?

This isnt to harp on the average miata.net'er and say they are some how stupid for playing it safe, but playing it safe has its down sides when everyone is using the same or simular setup.

There was a thread with a 600whp BP a while back (it was in a 323) and the constant bickering forced the mods to close the thread. Which is extreamly retarded becuase I am sure somebody wanted to learn from its setup but the **** mod staff was too quick too close the thread. They should of just deleted the offending posts and let discussion continue in what should be considered a huge achievment in the miata/BP world.
While i agree in some aspects, the efficiency of an intercooler will be alot easier to determine (since it wont change from car to car, and I dont see why it would change really from turbo to turbo) than the performance of a shock... Well even without calculating it you could do some thermodynamic flow analysis on it, but thats way over my head. And i dont think you would need the same ambiant temp
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:14 PM   #22
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that's a BEGI intercooler system. you got it right, too...it's for a car w/ AC and PS.
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Old 03-10-2006, 11:17 PM   #23
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back in the day, FM had a guage with a dual needle. it was an air temp gauge. one sender was mounted before the IC, the other after. it let you monitor the change in IATs.
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Old 03-11-2006, 12:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047
While i agree in some aspects, the efficiency of an intercooler will be alot easier to determine (since it wont change from car to car, and I dont see why it would change really from turbo to turbo) than the performance of a shock... Well even without calculating it you could do some thermodynamic flow analysis on it, but thats way over my head. And i dont think you would need the same ambiant temp
Ambiant temp affects the IC's ablity to cool the intake air. The colder the air (and in most cases the amount of air.)that is blowing on it the better it works. If the air thats blowing on the intercooler varies between the tests then they will be inaccurate. If a small intercooler that doesnt work the best has 5c air blowing on it it proabably will work better than a large intercooler with 30c air blowing onto it. To just say, "welp 1 intercooler cools the air by 7c and the other by 10c the 10c intercooler has to be better" even if the conditions were different isnt valid. Also there is the issue of pressure loss threw an intercooler. The greater the loss the the faster the turbo has to spin to make the same amount of boost measured at the intake manifold. Faster the turbo has to spin usually results in more heat. This can lead to diminishing returns... I am sure you guys already know this.. sorry
Oh for shocks there is shock dyno's. I know little about them but I guess they could be used to compair shocks. Also you can test shocks by seeing which one is faster on average around the track. Right???
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Old 03-11-2006, 03:34 AM   #25
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By taking into account the temperature difference the efficency of intercoolers can still be compared. But some base measurements would need to be taken to see what kind of effect the amb air really has on the Temp at the inlet of the intercooler. But once you have a relationship and with some assumptions you should be able to model the effciency. Once you have a model you can set the intake temp for all the models and compare effciencies, hell even throw in cost effectiveness. You can do it with measuring all the T_amb being the same but it will be easier just to make a model and enter the day for each test..
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:30 AM   #26
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Oh great. All this talk about fm has made this place as pointy as m.net.
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:52 AM   #27
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Are you talking about me and medisyn? I dont think anythings pointy, I think were just discussing the techincal aspects of testing efficiency. If you had a place with consant temp/pressu/rehumidity...etc...etc it would be very easy, but since that is near impossible. I think you would have to model the intercooler (heat exchanger) and then input the operating temp.

If it ever came to a point where I needed to figure out intercooler effiencny Id find away to model them, but I think it would be nice if other people did for me
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:31 PM   #28
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I forgot the smilies. Was meant to poke fun only.
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:07 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki047
By taking into account the temperature difference the efficency of intercoolers can still be compared. But some base measurements would need to be taken to see what kind of effect the amb air really has on the Temp at the inlet of the intercooler. But once you have a relationship and with some assumptions you should be able to model the effciency. Once you have a model you can set the intake temp for all the models and compare effciencies, hell even throw in cost effectiveness. You can do it with measuring all the T_amb being the same but it will be easier just to make a model and enter the day for each test..
Hrmm maybe I am wrong, it just seems to me the air blowing on the intercoolers (the amount and temp) would have to be the same to make an accurate compairison. Well at least it would make it a lot easer to test
Math never was nor never will be my strong suit :gay: Passing college level math was a pain in the *** form me!
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Old 03-16-2006, 03:49 AM   #30
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The FM kit's are NOT FOR THE DIY people out there. People who want a very good, complete, and reliable turbo kit for their miata are willing to pay extra for not having to trouble shoot and go on m.net for problems and advise. They want to install it and leave it for years of problem free boost. O and by the way FM2 is the best turbo kit you can buy for a miata out right now bar none, it may not be fastest, may not be cheapest, but OVERALL it is the best.
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Old 03-16-2006, 09:27 AM   #31
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I dunno, I really like the looks of BEGi's new kit right now. I think I'd take that over an FM kit (if I had a 1.8L car) and add an ECU down the road if I had the dough.
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Old 03-16-2006, 09:42 AM   #32
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i'm telling you, if you have the patience, you can build your own FM/BEGI kit. i think especially now with BEGI and FM upgrading their parts, finding second hand parts is going to be easier.

i found the FM3 manifold on ebay. it was ~$150. the downpipes aren't that hard to find. with FM new cast unit and BEGI's new one with the divorced wastegate, the pointies are dumping their perfectly good stainless 2.5" pipes to have "the latest and greatest".

if i had been quicker on the draw, i could have had my intercooler system for cheaper than new.

i think an fm kit CAN be DIY, if you're able/willing to refurbish the parts.

all i've have to do so far is clean up the parts and spec the mating surfaces.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:06 AM   #33
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I already have my own turbo setup, I just meant, if I were looking for a new kit, BEGi's the direction I would start right now. I wouldn't be interested in used FM parts, as the parts I currently have on my car are nearly as good.

I'm more interested in the nice work Corky's done with the cold-air box, compressor inlet plumbing and downpipe: http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...installed2.jpg
http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...installed3.JPG
http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...wnpipe2_Lg.jpg

Those are the sorta things that I just wouldn't have the patience to make...at least not to that level of quality and beauty
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:44 PM   #34
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Is that a finished kit? Because the welds are gorgeous.... which is why i wonder if that is what shipping.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:57 PM   #35
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Well, that's what they've touted as a finished, shipping kit at this point, so yes. I mean, check out how complex that compressor-inlet-to-MAF piece is.
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Old 03-16-2006, 01:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bripab007
I already have my own turbo setup, I just meant, if I were looking for a new kit, BEGi's the direction I would start right now. I wouldn't be interested in used FM parts, as the parts I currently have on my car are nearly as good.
i understand that, but the interchangeability between fm and begi is still there. the support and quality is awesome.
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesefries
O and by the way FM2 is the best turbo kit you can buy for a miata out right now bar none, it may not be fastest, may not be cheapest, but OVERALL it is the best.
Then it is NOT the best!!
Remember the saying: you can have Cheap, you can have quality, or you can have Speed....choose 2.
Well from what you said FM doesn't even give you 2...
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Old 03-17-2006, 12:49 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Roadster
Then it is NOT the best!!
Remember the saying: you can have Cheap, you can have quality, or you can have Speed....choose 2.
Well from what you said FM doesn't even give you 2...
hahahha thats great.
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Old 03-17-2006, 09:23 AM   #39
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any turbo will give you power/speed. the FM/BEGI gives you quality.
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Old 03-17-2006, 10:51 AM   #40
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So WHAT IS the best IC to use ? Vertical or horizontal core ?
Which of the Starion ICs is better ? I've heard that the smaller one is better than the larger one.
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