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Old 10-01-2009, 02:30 PM   #21
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I don't know how people can say that GM is building cars no one wants. Well maybe that's true, but they are still selling them. 2008 sales still were #1 in the US. Sure they've lost market share, sure a lot of loyal Made in the USofA consumers have jumped ship. But christ around here you can't throw a stick with out hitting <insert generic GM car unit here. GM's problem is amazingly bad management over DECADES!

The best part is that GM has stepped it up a notch. Back when they were closing plants all over the US they were just killing towns. Now they are after global economies! Now that's success! The collateral damage from GM sucking is amazing. Back when they were just laying off people most who weren't supported directly by GM were put in harms way. Now that the Governments (Both US and Canada) have tried to bail them out EVERYONE is hurt. Nice.

GM and Chrysler should have been left to die. Better leaner companies would have emerged. **** trying to create new classes of vehicles and new markets. Build three things. Cheap *** economy car for the masses. Full size pick-up truck. And a Mini-Van. Focus everything on those three platforms and how could they not profit? This is how Honda became a power house. Back in the 80's and 90's how many cars did Honda have in it's line-up?
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_man View Post
One day, maybe, I'll understand the whole "I want GM to die and burn and they're terrible and every one of their cars should be summarily crushed on sight" attitudes that I see.
I have to wonder if that is, in fact, genuinely the case?

On the one hand, I guess it's not a lot different from the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar debate which has raged for decades. But truthfully, could any of those jihadists actually tell you why an orange-painted pushrod V8 is superior / inferior to a blue-painted pushrod V8?

On the other hand, I have to question whether most of the folks who espouse such anti-GM philosophies today actually believe any of it, or whether they are simply parroting slogans because it's easier than thinking.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:43 PM   #23
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Iono about your vette analogy RM i have tested and looked at several older vettes from the 90's and 80's and agree they are all pretty much garbage. But the newwer vettes alla 2000+ and the newest vette from the literature etc i have read are realy put together well and deliver on performance. That being said the malibu will nvr compete with the accord camry or 3 series in my book. And GM realy fucked themselves by making there **** such a pain in the *** to work on. Who else makes a 7 foot wide muscle car in the 90's that you have to pull the motor to change the spark plugs on etc. The whole control freak ecus etc are a ****** joke as well. The japanese cars of old from what i have seen, where sure where rusty etc but they filled a niche. Ie light, fuel effecient and, cheap. We need more cars like that on the whole, i think that our cars have gotten way more expensive than they have to be. And along the same lines as the housing markets we need a correction on the retail prices downward.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:56 PM   #24
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I'd put my money on "both." Because, quite frankly, I don't think your two hands are in vastly different realms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
On the one hand, I guess it's not a lot different from the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar debate which has raged for decades. But truthfully, could any of those jihadists actually tell you why an orange-painted pushrod V8 is superior / inferior to a blue-painted pushrod V8?
There are a thousand other debates like that everywhere in the automotive world and elsewhere. Mac vs. PC comes to mind. Either option has its respective pros and cons, and most of those who espouse their love/hatred for one or the other are doing so, most likely in large part, because they can. And if challenged, they just revert to "well you're stupid," or some variation thereof, the surefire sign of a solid, logical and well thought-out argument. Then again,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
On the other hand, I have to question whether most of the folks who espouse such anti-GM philosophies today actually believe any of it, or whether they are simply parroting slogans because it's easier than thinking.
Way easier to fall back on mindless hatred than to formulate your own opinions and actually have to reach the cognitive level at which it is possible to identify and describe positive and negative traits of a subject. Honestly, sometimes I wish I could mindlessly follow what I'm told, and have the ability to see the world only in "good" and "bad," but then I realize how woefully unfulfilling it would be to have my life dictated by everyone else. Easy, but unfulfilling.

Anyway, you see this in the automotive world and elsewhere as well, where everybody wants to hop on the good old bandwagon, regardless of whether it's taking you anywhere good, or anywhere at all, for that matter.




As a disclaimer, I own multiple GM vehicles, and will most likely add more to the fleet in the relatively near future. Each has its pluses and minuses, but on the whole, each fills some need and is the right tool for the job. Kind of like the Miata. It is what it is, and fills the need/desire for a car of its type (small, two seat, lightweight, reasonably easy and cheap to work on, etc.), but it has its pitfalls (the fact that it's a convertible comes to mind, as I've mentioned before, I hate convertibles). Overall, however, it meets my needs and its shortcomings are within acceptable tolerances. I don't really have any feelings toward GM (or Mazda, or Mitsubishi, or Honda, or Toyota, or Ford or ...) one way or the other. Some time ago I learned that the only broad sweeping statement and generalization that isn't patently absurd and universally asinine is that broad, sweeping generalizations are universally asinine, and patently absurd.
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5
...the malibu will nvr compete with the accord camry or 3 series in my book. ...
May I ask why not? From what I understand, build quality of a new Malibu is on par with that of an Accord or Camry*. I won't say anything about the 3-series, as I'm not exactly sure why that comparison got brought up in the first place earlier in the thread- comparing things that are (at least are supposed to be) economy-type sedans with a more upscale sports sedan is kind of apples and oranges.

So, Malibu/Accord/Camry- build quality, options, features, whatever- all kind of on par with each other, at least in my eyes. I won't say that I've driven them, because I really have no desire to even look at these cars (I don't buy $20,000 economy cars, it defeats the whole purpose of "economy." I buy $2000 or less "economy" cars.) but comparing specs, features, etc., they look pretty equal.

So, what's your reasoning?



*Well, that's what the literature says. I take it with a healthy dose of salt, as I think Consumer Reports (known liars), JD Power, et. al. simply produce printed toilet paper and kindling, not anything worth reading. Alas, I don't really have anything else to go off of, and the rest of the world seems to blindly follow these magazines, so...
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:09 PM   #26
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You would own more the_man? If they started making more cars that look like the malibu, camaro, and vette then they would have pretty cars, they just need to bring their craftsmanship up to par. It has taken 21 years for the dash lights to start to go out in my 240, something that took all of 3 years in a Trailblazer. Every one of the big 3 cars I have driven with automatic windows have had problems with them. None of said trailblazer's cigarette lighters/power jacks work anymore, neither do the electronics for the front passenger. The most amount of success I have had with a domestic automobile was a Jeep Patriot, its only problems being poor metal quality in some areas and faulty electric windows. I don't want to be in a rage against US based companies, but they are writing checks their butts can't cash.

the 3 series was brought up earlier in the thread because GM tried comparing the malibu against it...
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:15 PM   #27
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Yeah, I am definitely one of the least brand loyal buyers in existence...I like each vehicle for what it has to offer, regardless of who makes it. Whether it's performance, price, reliability or whatever. I bought a VW because I thought it would be a dependable daily driver, what joke...it's been a nightmare. I am not going to now say that VW is crap, but the B5.5 passat sure as hell is and its well documented. All I know is that when you go to fix a european car it costs 2-3x as much. Luckilly, I repair it myself, otherwise I might really be pissed.

Lets see what I have owned: oldsmobile, GMC, Honda, Mazda, Ford, Subaru, VW, Saturn(outlook, barely a saturn), Dodge, Jeep, BMW...

Of all of these cars, the VW has been the biggest POS. The Ford is the second biggest, but I don't think that counts considering its been flogged mercilessly on the track for the last 5000 miles ...none of the others except the Mazda would do as well especially at the price point I expect.
I guess the point is, you can't judge a car company based on a single car, otherwise porsche would even be **** for making those worthless Cayennes...based on an even more worthless VW Toureg. The quality was so bad on those that VW dropped them from their reliability stats. How's that for working the numbers?

I guess my point is that it was bad business management and even more so unions that killed the american car companies....don't even get me started on unions. There was a time and a place for them and it's long since passed.

Last edited by rlogan; 10-01-2009 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:58 PM   #28
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Hmm, this day in age it doesn't take long to dig up info. Every manufacturer has problems...get used to it...

tacoma problems - Google Search

You could do this same search with any car...and I do mean any.

This is one of my favorites, Toyota has massive recalls and they are "heroes"...the big 3 does and it's because they have shitty products...

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...a_recalls.html

BTW, I have nothing against toyota...I looked heavily at the Sequoia and other large SUVs in the Toyota lineup, but the price was excessive and the fuel mileage was even worse. I ended up with an Outlook, and it's been great, it even tows my race car better than I could have imagined. I even recommended a Scion Tc to a coworker that was looking for something stylish and reasonably priced...boy was that a mistake, talk about horrible service and endless issues. Once again, I don't think Toyota is crap now...I just won't ever give anyone advice on buying a car again.

Last edited by rlogan; 10-01-2009 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mazda/nissan
You would own more the_man?
Without hesitation. I will say, though, that of the GM cars we have around (the ones I own myself and the ones in my relatively close family), the newest is a '95 (no OBDII cars for me/us) and the oldest an '84.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazda/nissan
Every one of the big 3 cars I have driven with automatic windows have had problems with them. None of said trailblazer's cigarette lighters/power jacks work anymore, neither do the electronics for the front passenger.
I could throw out my own anecdotal evidence that "proves" that GM cars are great, it doesn't make it so. My current Miata left me stranded (aforementioned main EFI relay failure), and my previous Miata had the distinction of being the only car I've owned to suffer a manual window failure (in the halfway down position). One of the guys at work here is fighting a lemon law suit against Toyota on his POS brand-new Tundra. A bad car is a bad car, it doesn't mean that Mazda or GM or Toyota make all bad cars, it just means that every once in a while a bad car rolls off the line.

Just to put things in perspective, think about how many components there are in a modern automobile. Sensors, computers, switches, relays, fuses, wiring, pumps, injectors, all sorts of stuff. Then think about how many different countries a lot of that stuff comes from, how far it travels, how many sets of hands and/or robotic arms it passes through. Think about the fact that each component, for the most part, is made up of other components, and each component, subassembly and assembly will have some nonzero rate of being bad out of the box, improperly assembled, etc. Then think about how few problems even the worst of cars has today relative to even ten years ago. Really, it's amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazda/nissan
the 3 series was brought up earlier in the thread because GM tried comparing the malibu against it...
It's an asinine comparison. I mean, maybe not so much for the average moronic car buyer, but for anybody who is remotely an enthusiast, it's asinine. I guess since the majority of the driving public just cares about leather seats, bluetooth and navigation, it's a great comparison.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:26 PM   #30
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Uh, yeah...BMW? ...ask my neighbor about the $1300 steering rack he just had replaced in his 7 series.... $1300(just the part) for a steering rack, WTF? Oh, then there is the bizarre thumping sound it's had in the differential/halfshaft for the last 2 years that no one can figure out. Oh, and the window regulator/switch that only works sometimes (ironic eh) A 7 series, I would expect much better than that for that price point!

I guarantee you I can come up with a horror story for every manufacturer....cars suck, all of them. Honestly, I don't why they are my hobby! I must be a glutton for punishment and I like an empty wallet.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:26 PM   #31
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what happens if you own a Saturn and you need warranty covered work done? will other GM brand dealers honor it? will anybody continue making parts for them? etc....
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:45 PM   #32
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Correct...you can take a GM product to ay GM dealer. They'll continue making parts and when they stop the aftermarket will pick up where they left off. Almost every part (aside from some exterior body parts) on the Outlook is used in the other lambda platforms (acadia, traverse, enclave) Not sure about carryover in other platforms but parts will be available for quite some time.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by budget racer View Post
what happens if you own a Saturn and you need warranty covered work done? will other GM brand dealers honor it? will anybody continue making parts for them? etc....
You can still buy parts for flathead V8s made in the 1930s. You can build, from aftermarket catalogs, several entire cars, as a matter of fact- replacement frames, body panels, interior pieces, etc. are all out there- so what makes you think you wouldn't be able to get parts for a 2009 Saturn Aura if you can get parts for a 1929 Ford or a 1969 Dodge?

GM must, I believe, keep parts available for 10 years, and then the aftermarket will take over if they stop. So long as there is a demand, the parts will exist. Even if they didn't box them as Saturn parts, they're almost certainly shared with 279 other GM products worldwide, you'd just go into an auto parts store and it'd go like this:

"I need an alternator for a 2009 Saturn Aura."
"We don't have those."
"OK, then, I need an alternator for a 2009 Chevy Malibu."
"Here you go."
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:59 PM   #34
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you act like oldsmobile never got dissolved. **** a saturn, good riddance.
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Old 10-01-2009, 05:03 PM   #35
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Well, I don't think they'll make any parts quite that long...for these fine rides on the roads these days. There aren't many cars in recent history that make it past 20 years without having a run in with a crusher. Hell, they are all plastic.

And yes, Oldsmobile, talk about something that should have been dissolved in the 80s along with Pontiac. And why the hell do they still have GMC???

Besides, Obama will make sure we can't keep a car longer than 5 years anyway...it will be completely inefficient when its that old! sheesh, buy a new one!

You guys just wait and see how you feel when we're all driving chinese cars!

Tuning out until the conversation gets a bit more intelligent.
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Old 10-01-2009, 05:14 PM   #36
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I've always judged car companies from my own perspective...which has always been that of the buyer of the best <$2K used car I can find. Trust me...a lot of companies make cars that are real **** 10yrs later...Saturn is not one of them.

Saturns have always had deplorable resale value...which made them a bargain Corolla in the used market for their dependability and good build. Had it not been for the low rent original owners of many of these vehicles, they would be a little more prevalent. But folks that buy $10-12K domestic compacts treat them as such...whereas folks that spend the $15-18K on a Honda/Toyota tend to treat them like a real investment in transportation.

Even with this I've driven quite a few 100K+ mile Saturns that weren't showing any glaring defects and would have taken me to Dallas and back without a hitch. I agree that GM should have learned a lesson from Saturn...and that it might have saved them. I also cringed over the past year every time I heard their name on the news. After all...you have to pull for the underdog domestic car company that was trying to do things right in spite of their corporate bosses.

I will miss Saturn. There is something to be said for solid transportation made by Americans...and that day is now gone -unless of course you want that solid transportation made by Americans to come with a Honda or Nissan badge on it-.

Which comes back around to why American car companies failed. The American worker didn't kill them..the American corporation did. We have a late model Tundra in the family...and man is it a well-made truck. Japanese engineering...American craftmanship.

I'm not a big Union fan...but GM killed themselves. As far as the Corvette...it is the Harley-Davidson of sports cars. Not technologically...but cachet-wise. Harley also stopped innovating years ago...and allowed the Japanese to make utility bikes. People still buy every single one of them.

Thing is...Americans think we can still compete with the rest of the world on the "washing machine" level...and we simply can't. We have to build more advanced, bigger ticket items to maintain our economy and lifestyle. Unfortunately we aren't training our kids to do this. We are doomed...and even more so if Obama keeps trying to get involved in education.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:43 PM   #37
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I daily drive a '96 Saturn SL2 and I'm in the "saturn followers" group I guess... member at saturnfans.com where I found helpful info to solve a few quirks the car had.

I really am pleased w/ my car. Everything still works. Cruise, A/C, sunroof, pw, pl... rolled 150k about two weeks ago. I bought it at 130k for $500 and had to put a radiator in it, tires on it, and front control arms and tie rods. Uses oil like hell but as long as I keep it full it runs fine. The oil problem was due to no relief holes in the pistons. So the rings just gum up and next thing you know you're putting in a quart every 500 miles... or in my case.... 2 quarts every 300 miles. (yeah I know, holy ****.)

I spent $13 constructing a "hot air intake" for the car during the gas "crisis" a while back... managed 47mpg on a trip to and from Cleveland from Cincinnati. My car is an automatic, I used A/C and never coasted w/ the engine off like some jackasses were suggesting was safe and effective. Since gas prices came down I stopped toying w/ the hypermile crap, still average 28 in the city and 35-37 on highway.

I'm looking for a 2 door Ion as my next daily driver. I'm sad to see Saturn go. :(
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:47 PM   #38
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Wow.... I just threw this up as an FYI. I did not think it would spur this big discussion.

Mazda and Toyota rule. The Chevy LSx is a good motor. Everything else sucks *** diving for cover***
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
GM and Chrysler should have been left to die. Better leaner companies would have emerged.
My sentiments exactly.

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Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
**** trying to create new classes of vehicles and new markets. Build three things. Cheap *** economy car for the masses. Full size pick-up truck. And a Mini-Van. Focus everything on those three platforms and how could they not profit? This is how Honda became a power house. Back in the 80's and 90's how many cars did Honda have in it's line-up?
In 1980 Honda made 6 vehicles...3 of which were available in the US.
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Old 10-01-2009, 07:12 PM   #40
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In 1980 Honda made 6 vehicles...3 of which were available in the US.
Civic, Accord, Prelude. I owned two of the three.
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