Hey DK WOLF...I'm calling your ignorant, stupid ass out. I know you lurk here. - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Insert BS here A place to discuss anything you want

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-31-2010, 11:40 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default Hey DK WOLF...I'm calling your ignorant, stupid *** out. I know you lurk here.

So it seems you just can't stand being banned from CR. So much so that you have people post your stupid **** for you. How cute. Get a life maybe?

I though it might be fun to hear you defend this epic pile of **** post from CR...specifically the part about how bad turbos are. I've had 2 supercharger setups and I can say this is pretty much an opinion based post that would be an excellant way to mislead the poor minions who might really be trying to learn a thing or two.

Dude, I was reading some of this off to my GF who was busy yelling at the Chick-Fil-A Bowl game....and even she was correcting your bullshit "information"....yes, she knows this subject better than you......5 beers in.


To you guys here.... have fun with this one.



(Epic funny in following post- too many characters to post in one post)
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:46 PM   #2
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

1st half
Quote:
Originally Posted by DK DipShit View Post
SUPERCHARGERS

In this write up, were going to discuss the aspects of supercharging, it will be simplified severely so the average person will EASILY understand Forced induction. I will reference most of my sources and try to find visual assistance in helping you understand whatever aspect I am explaining.


What Does Supercharging do?
Essentially, supercharging does the exact same thing a turbocharger does, it sucks in air at an accelerated rate and shoves it into your cylinders, putting more oxygen into the combustion chamber, thus increasing potential power. Because combustion takes place with an AFM (air fuel mixture) which is just the amount of air (oxygen) per about of fuel. More air in your cylinders means you can put more fuel in there, and making more power.

Types of Superchargers (for miatas)
There are a couple of superchargers for miatas, I will avoid mentioning brand names, here are the following and their GENERAL differences.

The Positive Displacement Blower
Compresses air into the engine at a rate directly correlating with the revolutions of the crank, so for example, for each turn of the crank, you will get a set amount of air, the faster you rev, the amount of air is multiplied. This is by far the most common supercharger set up, the main attribute of these set ups is an extremely linear power curve(essentially its flat*or as flat as possible* across the RPM range).

The Dynamic Blower
Basically moves air as fast as possible, and when it comes to the compression stage, the sheer speed of the air being rammed into the chamber causes compression.

Roots Supercharger
The most popular superchargers for Miatas are roots based superchargers. They work by dual props working in sync(being propelled by the crank belt of course) and propel a preset amount of air through the blades, up through the chamber and out of the rear of the supercharger (see video) as its on its way to the combustion chambers. Unlike other supercharger designs, the Roots blower does no compression in the unit itself, it makes the intake manifold do all that dirty work, and its major disadvantage to that fact is that it heats up a lot more than other superchargers. The basic laws of physics generally take mercy on supercharger systems that compress air in their own compression chamber because it lowers thermal heat, Another reason roots superchargers create higher amounts of heat is because they tend to carry some of the compressed air in the intake back into the supercharger because it gets trapped by the rotating lobes that are exposed to the hotter air in the intake manifold. One of the biggest advantages of Roots blowers, are that they generally have the highest reliability of all other superchargers. Callaway Motors has done decades of experimenting with every version of forced induction and done 200,000 mile tests on each version to see reliability and strength and ease of application. They have found a roots blower can pass 150k without any problems what so ever (as opposed to most other superchargers that seem to need maintance or run into issues at around 50k is the average consensus at Callaway). These blowers generally are low RPM operating (which means the compressor spins at a lot lower RPM as opposed to other supercharger/turbocharger methods) they are also self lubricating and are great for making large amounts of power. (also roots type superchargers generally make the most noise)

Pros:
High reliability and endurance
Usually the least expensive of superchargers
Very simply design

Cons:
Creates a lot of heat
Does NOT compress air in the units itself.
Subject to leakage (loss of pressure)
[YOUTUBE]1Lu6n5qBE2s[/YOUTUBE]



TWIN SCREW SUPERCHARGERS
Twin Screw Superchargers, are a minority in the miata world. They opperate by have two screws that force air into a compression chamber in the unit itself. The advantages the twin screw supercharger has over a roots is that the tolerance threshold (or precession) is extremely tight. They have less performance issues in regards to leakage (loss of pressure in the process) and compresses more air than a roots blower. Being a displacement increasing supercharger, the twin screw also (like the roots blower) needs to have the throttle body placed before the compressor. Probably the best feature of the twin screw is that it is probably one of the coolest running superchargers, the screws of a twin screw supercharger don’t actually touch, EVER (hence why they are built so precise). They are kept cool because compression is done within the supercharger itself (remember, denser air is colder air) and the fact that the two major screws don’t touch, you can rule out friction. A disadvantage of the twin screw design is that, because it has an internal compression ratio, the twin screw is compressing air even when it is not sending boost to the engine (under cruising or deceleration). An internal bypass valve releases the pressurized air, but because it takes work to pressurize the air in the first place, the twin screw supercharger draws more power from the engine than while not under boost.


Pros:
Almost no leakage issues
Low end performance

Cons:
Always under boost, and sucks power from the engine without increasing power when you don’t want it to.
EXPENSIVE
Very loud Whistle (arguably sounds good or bad)





CENTRIFUGAL SUPERCHARGER
Next we have a somewhat new contender for supercharger set ups for the Mazda Miata. The Centrifugal supercharger. So first thing you have to know about the centrifugal supercharger, is that unlike the first two supercharger types mentioned above, it is NOT a positive displacement based supercharger, it is a dynamic supercharger, which essentially means it makes air move at a very high rate of speed, traps it in a small area, and it just automatically compresses with the pervious inertia. These superchargers are generally a huge favorite in the world of superchargers. They are quiet if not absolutely silent, rather reliable, and behaves almost like a turbocharger. One advantage to the centrifugal supercharger is that is produces almost NO heat. The impeller blades suck in air at a super high rate of speed, and just having air rush at that speed through the interior of the supercharger coolest it down and absorbs any heat that would be produced (there is very little in the entire process) and tops the list in the most thermally efficient system. This supercharger also is a lot smaller than any other supercharger method, because its about the size of the average turbo (looks like it too) and in most cases, the unit itself isn’t attached to the engine, but mostly brackets are made. It also happens to have a "free-wheel" and allows the engine to suck air through it or even flow air backwards. For this reason it can be placed anywhere in the intake tract, it can even "blow through" the throttle body, meaning it can be mounted nearly anywhere. One of the major disadvantages to the centrifugal supercharger is that in most cases, it needs to be spinning extremely fast for it to make a good amount of boost (behavior that matches a turbo in this respect), in most tested cases, they begin to make power at around 3k RPM and are not recommended for low end power. Also MOST centrifugal superchargers in the industry are NOT self lubricating (there are kits that ARE, especially for the miata) and you need to gain access to the engines oil line so it can lube itself up, most would consider this a disadvantage as seeing its “another thing that can go wrong” but these superchargers have phenomenal reliability, with testing with Callaway, centrifugal superchargers were ruled out simply for the fact they don’t produce good low end power, and are silent, otherwise in the reliability testing they almost matched the roots blower on average, it was maybe only slightly less.

Pros:
Very high potential for high boost (high hosepower gains)
Silent
Reliable
Coldest and most efficient running supercharger
Free Spinning wheel

Cons:
No affect in low end power





EXHAUST
I am going to cover exhaust systems because supercharger systems do not share the same attributes as a turbocharged car would in respect to exhausts. Turbos attempt to get rid of any backpressure in their exhaust systems to provide the best efficiency for their system. Mean while supercharged cars generally have a more NA (naturally aspirated) related exhaust. You want to try to keep a nice narrow exhaust system to keep exhaust velocity up so you can get rid of it the fastest, this is the general consensus on exhaust pipe sizing for most vehicles.
2.25: < 190 whp
2.50: < 240 whp
3.00: < 350 whp
3.50: < 480 whp
4.00: < 600 whp
(these numbers are estimates, and should not be taken as facts, each set up is different and varies, this is used for informational purposes only)



Now when you come to any serious or extreme supercharging, above what your pre purchased kit was made for, you might have to cover areas such as fuel, intercoolers, drive train, ect. Well all your answers can be found for that information at Miataturbo.net in their FAQ section (https://www.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=10821) , they have all the information that can be used also for supercharged miatas. (save for the info relating to exhaust, that’s turbo specific)
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:46 PM   #3
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

2nd half

Quote:
Originally Posted by DK DipShit
And the Ever old,

TURBOCHARGING VS SUPERCHARGING
(this is simply going to state information, no arguing)

Turbos and Superchargers do the same thing, end of story. They suck air in, and put it into a combustion chamber. They do it differently, and its how they do it that changes the way the outcome of the power. If one were to ask, which set up is better, im sorry, not even god could answer that question. The answer is, IT DEPENDS, what are you doing with your car? What are your goals? What sort of behavior do you want from your engine? These are all questions that need to be answered, hopefully me writing this will help you make a decision.

Superchargers pull their ability to operate from taking power from the engines crank directly, while turbos take advantage of exhausts, this benefit goes directly to turbos since there are no parasitic power loss (loss of power) to operate a turbo, as opposed to a supercharger. Also superchargers have a very low operating speed, generally from 7k-40k RPM MAX are the speeds that you usually see. Turbo systems are MUCH faster and you can often see operational speeds upwards of 150k RPM.

The cost of both systems is very subjective, this depends mostly on the car, and the aftermarket support for it. So there is no direct answer, but they generally cost the same.

Lag
Probably the biggest thing a supercharger has going for it, unlike a turbo, a supercharger creates power as soon as the engines RPM increase and its power all across the power band. Turbos suffer in this respect because they take effect later on in the RPM range (yes, this information is also subjective, there are kits that do produce very little lag, but we are speaking in generalities) so you bog your engine until you hit boost, or else you have to keep your engine high revving if you want to stay within the power band. So if you plan on using a wider range of your power band, the supercharger is for you, if you plan on using generally the top half of your RPM range, turbos are probably your best choice in this respect.

HEAT
One of the turbos biggest weaknesses, a turbo, being driven from the nice fresh HOT exhaust gases from your engine, heats up extremely fast, and STAYS hot. This creates the need of an intercooler to cool down air and avoid detonation in the engine. Since most superchargers run cooler, they generally don’t need an intercooler until higher boost pressures are reached, but just about every turbo system needs an intercooler to keep operational.

Power Surge
A topic, IMO not covered enough, some view this as an addiction, others a PITA. What surge is, is when a turbo reaches its performance threshold, you get a jump in power. This is arguably damaging to the engine components to be subjected to huge amounts of power suddenly. This also hinders drivability, it gets hard, and annoying to drive a car that has a huge increase in power while your cruising, and you build a habit of keeping track of your RPMs. Superchargers (most) do not have surge, they develop power from the get go, and it builds up smoothly and is linear (flat on the power curve).

Noise
A supercharger makes more noise, end of story. Turbos are relatively quiet, and the unit itself acts like a muffler. Superchargers usually run NA exhausts and the whine from most systems is very loud, some love the sound, others get sick of it. (you tube supercharger sounds if your curious)

Reliability
This is a fierce factor in both applications, superchargers have little to no maintained needed, meanwhile turbos are needed to be babied and treated correctly or they break. When a a turbo is shut off (i.e. when the engine is turned off), residual oil inside the turbo's bearings can be baked by stored engine heat. This, combined with the turbo's extremely high rpms (up to 150,000rpm) can cause problems with the turbo's internal bearings and can shorten the life of the turbocharger. (this can be solved with certain methods that have been covered on miataturbo.net)
*also, superchargers are generally a lot easier to install than turbos*

Peak power
Turbos make more boost, and more potential power, if you want big numbers, turbo charging is the ONLY way to go. To get a supercharger to create a lot of power, you need an unrealistic amount of modification to the unit itself, your engine, and other components. But superchargers reach most SANE levels of power.

Mileage
Turbos have the advantage of getting better gas mileage than superchargers, because a supercharger is always under boost, it takes more gas than it did stock, so its mileage will be worse, turbos on the other hand can actually INCREASE mileage, there are advancements in both technologies that increase mileage but these are generalities we are talking about, each product is different

Tunability
Turbos are harder and more complex to tune, a supercharger is extremely simple and small ignition and fuel upgrades and maybe a little tuning are all that is needed to make a supercharger run.

I hope I have provided as much unbiased information as possible and set the record straight.





A fun FI calculator to mess around with *not accurate* (http://www.superchargersonline.com/hp_calculator.asp )

I wrote this write up from scratch, using information at my disposal from
Superchargersonline.com
Miataturbo.net
Howstuffworks.com
Callawayownersgroup.com
And direct information available to me while working at Callaway Motors.

Special thanks to XCLR8TN, DazedAndConfused, and Haigog for helping me out with this.
Written by DK_WOLF
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:54 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bloomfield, Michigan
Posts: 5,682
Total Cats: 10
Default

Tuned for Dopple's "Im fucked up" post later on tonight
buffon01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2010, 11:55 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (17)
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,831
Total Cats: 0
Default

SC easier to install? I remember the only SC intall I have ever done will be my last. It was a complete PITA. I would much rather take my turbo off a dozen times than **** with a SC again.....
WonTon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 12:01 AM   #6
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffon01 View Post
Tuned for Dopple's "Im fucked up" post later on tonight
*looks at can of Four LoKo and remaining Kona Piperline Porter*

Am I that predictable? At least this time I hadn't eaten a turket sandwech with an expiration date of 6 monfs ago!
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 12:07 AM   #7
NB/VVT Connoisseur
iTrader: (23)
 
viperormiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Key West
Posts: 6,067
Total Cats: 253
Default

Hahaha, he spends all his time on CR now, I'm surprised he hasn't been banned there yet. EDIT: oh ****! Hahahaha, About time.

But...my god. That is the biggest load of horse **** I've had to read in a while.
viperormiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 12:10 AM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bloomfield, Michigan
Posts: 5,682
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
*looks at can of Four LoKo and remaining Kona Piperline Porter*

Am I that predictable? At least this time I hadn't eaten a turket sandwech with an expiration date of 6 monfs ago!
You do it every time there is a celebration day lululz
buffon01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 12:22 AM   #9
NB/VVT Connoisseur
iTrader: (23)
 
viperormiata's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Key West
Posts: 6,067
Total Cats: 253
Default

Closed
viperormiata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 12:27 AM   #10
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 2,980
Total Cats: 14
Default

Too long for me to read. Can you give the best example of what your GF says is stupid?
rmcelwee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:18 AM   #11
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Rob- No. At this point in the night ican;t remember. Benn drinkin tomm much.

I knoew that guy would eventually **** me off. She knows that compressed air is the reason a intercoller is needed. Shje knows that turbos arent needed "for the most horse power desired" and that turbo sizing depends on the application. She has owned 3 boosted cars. She laughed at the "fact" that turbos only need intercoolerz because exhaiut heat is transfterred to the intake/compressed air whichj requires an intercooler.....you know...not because all compressed air, not matter what method of compression, heats air :rollsyeses:
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:22 AM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bloomfield, Michigan
Posts: 5,682
Total Cats: 10
Default

^Drunk posting already
buffon01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:23 AM   #13
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

i see yo jayc72 bufffffon jakob mcarp and some new guy.....stalin this thread.
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:25 AM   #14
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffon01 View Post
^Drunk posting already

Go drive in a puiddly you cuban!!! I can;t make mfun of you too mcuh as youre from FL....and I am a FL native.....from Miami but been in GA too dfamn long. I miss Fl. Kicked it up in Hollywood and Sunrise before moving to Atlanta lik 20 years ago :(
I hads my spft spot for so Fl.
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:26 AM   #15
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

damno capos to take swings at :giggle"(biffon)
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:30 AM   #16
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6,868
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffon01 View Post
^Drunk posting already
uj ****** bet!
Doppelgänger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 02:32 AM   #17
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bloomfield, Michigan
Posts: 5,682
Total Cats: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
Go drive in a puiddly you cuban!!! I can;t make mfun of you too mcuh as youre from FL....and I am a FL native.....from Miami but been in GA too dfamn long. I miss Fl. Kicked it up in Hollywood and Sunrise before moving to Atlanta lik 20 years ago :(
I hads my spft spot for so Fl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
damno capos to take swings at :giggle"(biffon)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
uj ****** bet!
Quoted for future reference
buffon01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 05:09 AM   #18
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,105
Total Cats: 518
Default

Dopple is drunk. End of story.
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 07:13 AM   #19
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Shalimar, FL
Posts: 965
Total Cats: 7
Default

Yes drumkl/........makes for good forum posts. I can't beliebve IO spelled m,ost of that first senctence right.woooo!!!!!!!
messiahx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 01:17 PM   #20
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,847
Total Cats: 1,788
Default

Quote:
heat
one of the turbos biggest weaknesses, a turbo, being driven from the nice fresh hot exhaust gases from your engine, heats up extremely fast, and stays hot. This creates the need of an intercooler to cool down air and avoid detonation in the engine. Since most superchargers run cooler, they generally don’t need an intercooler until higher boost pressures are reached, but just about every turbo system needs an intercooler to keep operational.
lawls! This is classic.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB MP62 (Hotside) (NB2) Rick02R WTB 3 01-03-2016 08:18 PM
Noob to Miataturbo from MA JxPhan Meet and Greet 3 10-02-2015 03:17 AM
Bad head gasket or ? shooterschmidty Engine Performance 8 09-30-2015 11:28 PM
First Miata Rhidell Meet and Greet 1 09-27-2015 10:42 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:58 PM.