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Interesting times indeed! Calculators? What's the fun in that?
I wrote a paper in college some 20 years ago about solar pv arrays. I think the $/watt for installed residential was ~$10/watt.
Today it's less than $3/watt. That might be unsustainable due to the way global markets work, but it does change the equation.
My comment was more to point out that the curves had apparently crossed and that I had just realized it.
Sounds like you have a nice power setup . Australia (somewhat like where I live in the southwest of the US) certainly has the open land area to make use of.
I did actually throw in the cost to run the nuclear plant. That's where the 22000 per hour came from. Those numbers actually came down a lot in the last 5 years; I expected it to be higher.
I think that here in the states, the people who would benefit the most from nuclear or wind or solar are either complete idiots or possessed of “discretionary ignorance.” Because the practical effects of the current energy policy fiasco haven’t really arrived yet, there is virulent opposition to the construction of any sort of generating or distribution systems, because “nature/wilderness” or noise or ugliness or anything else that requires change.
That might start to change this winter when folks in my neck of rural Maine(for example) start having to choose between having lights/heat and eating, but for now magical thinking prevails.
A statewide referendum recently killed (maybe - the lawyers haven’t finished yet) a huge hydroelectric power line from HydroQuebec to New England, because it would require a corridor about 100m wide x 85 km long through forests on recently paper company-owned land. There’s an ongoing grassroots opposition campaign against a test wind farm about 15 miles offshore of 4(!) windmills, to protect lobstermen or something. Trying to build a large solar array? Good luck with the requirements for long-term groundwater chemical-leaching information, which essentially doesn’t exist.
Meanwhile, the cost to heat my house this winter will be about $5500-6000 more than in 2020-21. I can afford it, a lot of people can’t. It’s not going to be pretty. Perhaps folks will start to realize that electricity comes from somewhere besides the pole outside their house.
Years ago I worked on a huge nuclear project (WPPSS if anyone cares), and it was a complete cluster-f, but was very eye-opening about the “complexity of the US power grid. Between the client and us(constructors), everything was wrong, but I am convinced that nuclear is still our best solution.
I think that here in the states, the people who would benefit the most from nuclear or wind or solar are either complete idiots or possessed of “discretionary ignorance.” Because the practical effects of the current energy policy fiasco haven’t really arrived yet, there is virulent opposition to the construction of any sort of generating or distribution systems, because “nature/wilderness” or noise or ugliness or anything else that requires change.
Here in northern Illinois, where noise and ugliness are the norm, we have six nuclear plants, totaling eleven reactors. We are a net-exporter of electricity to surrounding states.
But the fact of the matter is that 100% of those reactors are in the non-leftist regions which surround Chicago.
Many people remain convinced that nuclear energy is responsible for thousands (or millions) of deaths per year, despite the fact that it is the second-safest form of power generation known to man (after hydro, which lefties also hate, because fish), even when you factor in Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima.
Fewer causalities per unit of power generated than wind and solar.
Nuclear energy has become a borderline-religious topic amongst those with weak minds and strong opinions. There is little point in trying to appeal to their sense of reason, as I learned in the early 2010s as a resident of San Diego, being regularly approached by Greenpeace evangelists in the parking lot of my local Trader Joe's.
Originally Posted by xturner
Years ago I worked on a huge nuclear project (WPPSS if anyone cares), and it was a complete cluster-f, but was very eye-opening about the “complexity of the US power grid.
I recall that you and I once had a long and interesting conversation about Whoops. I respect your opinions in this matter.
Interesting times indeed! Calculators? What's the fun in that?
I wrote a paper in college some 20 years ago about solar pv arrays. I think the $/watt for installed residential was ~$10/watt.
Today it's less than $3/watt. That might be unsustainable due to the way global markets work, but it does change the equation.
My comment was more to point out that the curves had apparently crossed and that I had just realized it.
Sounds like you have a nice power setup . Australia (somewhat like where I live in the southwest of the US) certainly has the open land area to make use of.
I did actually throw in the cost to run the nuclear plant. That's where the 22000 per hour came from. Those numbers actually came down a lot in the last 5 years; I expected it to be higher.
$3/watt? Say $15k for 10kw (10,000w), that is $1.50/w, could be as low as $1-$1.20 depending on how cheap you wanted go with the panels and inverters. Domestically, batteries are the sleepers. The RoI gives payback periods longer than the guaranteed life of the batteries, and while you would expect them to last longer that is rather offputting for most. However if you have an EV, you have a BIG battery compared to a Tesla powerwall say. Use that as the domestic battery for early evening when high usage cooking etc, and charge overnight when usage low to nonexistent., or during the day when parked at home/work.
Yes, I jumped years ago when there were subsidies and went for the biggest allowed, the subsidy paid for it just before it ended, I generate 2-3 times my consumption. My roof is not suitable, so I have a ground mount setup in the paddock between my transformer and the house (acreage has its uses - some people have horses, I farm photons).
I missed that. Nuc is not an option here, but if you already have them it is a different story. The economics is something I should study - on the one hand you have depreciated capital cost, on the other you have substantial running costs, it would be interesting to compare that against the capital cost of the renewable (solar/wind) with effectively zero operational cost. As well as storage, you would have to look at transmission, most of the big renewables here require upgraded/new transmission lines (the low hanging fruit there has well and truly gone), whereas coal/nucs already have the lines.
The newest of the 6 nukes in Illinois is Clinton, which started up in 1987. There have been 4 plants commissioned since 1990, only one this century. I understand that there are a couple under construction in Georgia, which I find heartening.
While the “Nukes are thalidomide forever” crowd have a lot of responsibility here, a very big reason that there haven’t been more is that our project cost ballooned about 500%, causing the client to only complete 1 of the 5 units and leading to the largest-ever municipal bonding default - to the tune of $2.25 billion. Some of that increase was the fault of the the client, some was our fault, but bad luck(read TMI) was the real killer. Almost overnight, current safety-related systems were obsoleted by NRC regulations. Unit 3 went from 70% complete to 30, Unit 5 from 30 to about 12. When you’re already 2 or 3 billion $ into something, you can’t just say “Screw it, I’m out.” Next thing you know, the Spec Miata you’re building has just become a Porsche 963.
Anyway, for at least a couple decades, the prospect of a replay of that story has frightened off private finance - which means building anything new requires the government, which means politics, which means that the modern Luddites have the biggest voice.
... Use that as the domestic battery for early evening when high usage cooking etc, and charge overnight when usage low to nonexistent., or during the day when parked at home/work.
...
This is part of the prescribed message that always gets me. We're told to always charge during off peak hours, but if when everyone is forced into BEV's there will be no off peak hours. Overnight charging would become the worst time, exceeding even the daily air conditioning and cooking spike on the grid.
Many people remain convinced that nuclear energy is responsible for thousands (or millions) of deaths per year, despite the fact that it is the second-safest form of power generation known to man (after hydro, which lefties also hate, because fish), even when you factor in Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima..
The issue is you are explaining science to people that can't pass a middle school science test.
This is part of the prescribed message that always gets me. We're told to always charge during off peak hours, but if when everyone is forced into BEV's there will be no off peak hours. Overnight charging would become the worst time, exceeding even the daily air conditioning and cooking spike on the grid.
Something that's interesting to think about.. to pump and refine 1 gallon of gasoline requires electricity and heat. So far I haven't had much luck finding a reputable source but the process seems to require about 1kWh of direct electricity, and enough heat that if it was to turn a turbine it would generate about 3.5kWh.. so 4.5kWh to pump and refine 1 gallon of gasoline.
This is part of the prescribed message that always gets me. We're told to always charge during off peak hours, but if when everyone is forced into BEV's there will be no off peak hours. Overnight charging would become the worst time, exceeding even the daily air conditioning and cooking spike on the grid.
Yes, but off-peak is a very 20th century phenomenon arising from the fact that the big coal generators could not be throttled readily, and someone had to be found to use the power generated at night when no-one was wanting power, Cheap power was the answer, but with the demise of coal generators (happening rapidly here), there is no need to find users for surplus power because that is a rapidly diminishing feature of the grid. .There may be new power generation cycles, for example over-building for winter when solar generation is lower, so summer power is in surplus, but what emerges will not be clear for a long time yet.
If that (big increase in overnight demand) looks like happening, and the grid is largely dependent on renewables boosted by storage, the price would go up to reflect scarcity/cost of supply. Given that by definition solar is out of the market at that time, it would be wind and storage, plus any remnant non-renewable supply, I imagine the overnight 'off-peak' supply capacity would become progressively more limited, and costs to rise. But no problem, you just drive your battery to work, or leave it at home, and charge it during the day when supply is greater and consequently potentially cheaper. However that last proposition is more complex, as demand is also greater by day as industry and commerce start demanding supply, and how that supply/demand equation works out is difficult to predict from this distance.
There is a parallel situation in hot water supply. My off-peak HWS shat itself a couple of years ago, and I needed a quick fix, so no time to research the solar HWS options, let alone line up the materials and labour to install. Replacement like-for-like was quick and (relatively) cheap, Much much cheaper than a solar HWS. My off-peak electricity cost 15c/kwh then, my old feed-in tariff was 6c/kwh, so redirecting my solar generation to the HWS would save me 9c/kwh. My new electricity contract has different numbers (20c/32c), but similar result (saving 9c/12c/kwh). However I have not pulled that trigger yet as it will cost me quite a few hundred dollars to get a sparky to supply and install the necessary meters and switchgear, but with this new supply contract the savings from changing to solar are now greater, reducing the payback period for the changeover cost - I better get my wheels on and start looking further into this!
Been a debate about that here too. There was to be a trial run using recycled sewage on some local playing fields, not sure how that worked out. Also a proposal up Lokiel's way, ditto.
My place is not sewered, I have my own waste water treatment plant for grey/black water - first stage is a traditional single tank septic system, outflow goes to an active filtration/aeration/chlorination process before being pumped out through sprinklers. Supposed to be safe for rooted edibles/orchard/etc, but risky for leafy vegetables.
My place is not sewered, I have my own waste water treatment plant for grey/black water - first stage is a traditional single tank septic system, outflow goes to an active filtration/aeration/chlorination process before being pumped out through sprinklers. Supposed to be safe for rooted edibles/orchard/etc, but risky for leafy vegetables.
I'm curious about the second stage. For the filtration process, what is the upkeep in terms of labor and cost? What do you have to do, and how often, and are there any consumables beyond chlorine? What do you do with the surplus water? Sounds pretty cool to get a second use, and essentially free irrigation in a relatively dry area.
A buddy of mine is doing electricity and was asked an interesting question..
Electricity flows from negative to positive, right? The electrons come from the negative side which has extra of them and go to the positive which lacks electrons.
Now lets look at an LED. It says the electricity flows from positive to negative. Positive lead is Anode, negative is Cathode. Current flows from the anode to the cathode. This seems to contradict the first statement.
A buddy of mine is doing electricity and was asked an interesting question..
Electricity flows from negative to positive, right? The electrons come from the negative side which has extra of them and go to the positive which lacks electrons.
...
You can just as easily say that the "holes" flow from positive to negative.
It may be easier to visualize if you consider a vacuum-tube, which is another type of diode. The cathode is heated by the filament (in many tubes, the filament IS the cathode), which causes it to radiate electrons which are then captured by the positively-charged plate, or anode.
It is from this effect that the term "cathode ray tube" comes. In a CRT, the stream of electron flowing off of the cathode are magnetically focused into a beam, or ray.
It is also useful to consider the schematic symbol of a diode:
This is symbolically illustrating the fact that current is blocked in the direction of Anode > Cathode.
I'm curious about the second stage. For the filtration process, what is the upkeep in terms of labor and cost? What do you have to do, and how often, and are there any consumables beyond chlorine? What do you do with the surplus water? Sounds pretty cool to get a second use, and essentially free irrigation in a relatively dry area.
Bottom line, because Public Health, only licenced people can service them (quarterly), they provide a report on the state of your system to the local government health officials. My contractor took 15 minutes a week or so ago to do mine, old report below. That costs me $85/quarter. Plus the electricity to run the blower and the pump for the sprinklers. Blowers have been consumables ($$!!), but between better heat insulation on the cover of the blower box, and a change in blower type, that seems to be fixed (I think I replaced three, the latest is looking good ATM), and I am on my second pump in nearly 30 years.
It was expensive to install, and the alternative (septic with specified engineered absorption field) would have been cheaper - if I could find a piece of suitable land, difficult in my situation. Clincher was the dam, which my house overlooks, I wanted to protect the water quality better than what the septic would.
It is good when we have a dry, right now we have more rain than we know what to do with - feast or famine!
Worth spending money to protect!! Lots of wildlife frequent it, swans, ducks, range of water fowl, cormorants fish the yabbies etc etc
A buddy of mine is doing electricity and was asked an interesting question..
Electricity flows from negative to positive, right? The electrons come from the negative side which has extra of them and go to the positive which lacks electrons.
Now lets look at an LED. It says the electricity flows from positive to negative. Positive lead is Anode, negative is Cathode. Current flows from the anode to the cathode. This seems to contradict the first statement.
Convention is that electricity flows from + to -. This standard existed before it was discovered that it is the electrons that move in conductors. So, the electrons move, which is opposite of the convention. (holes come into play in semi-conductors).
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Random thought on EV's after seeing all these states banning ICE vehicles in a few years.
Has the concept of an onboard ICE generator and EV been explored?
Not an ICE engine that powers the vehicle, but is sole purpose to generate electricity for the battery.
This generator can be 1, 2, 3 cylinder gas, diesel, kerosene, natural gas, or propane, multi fuel? It only runs in the most efficient RPM and load. It can run when you aren't driving it, or not at all. You can also charge the vehicle the standard way from the wall power.
Is this not practical? Is it just easier to run a plug in hybrid? Are they even pushing hybrids anymore?
08-25-2022, 09:03 PM
. Australia (somewhat like where I live in the southwest of the US) certainly has the open land area to make use of. 
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