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Old 05-26-2009, 10:59 AM   #61
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The votes are in:
Non-OEM turbo under race conditions: welding or die!
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-mail reply from the guy from the pictures below

Hi,
yes it was the only thing that lasted under race conditions...
all the types of fasteners I tried eventually failed..


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Old 05-26-2009, 11:05 AM   #62
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
Congrats to hustler for getting it on track.

Stein- I think there's an immense difference between beating a turbo car to death on the street vs. beating the same car on the track. The track is just 10x more grueling.

fwiw - Here's a solution from Percy - the Split Lock header hardware
unfortunately there is no way I will get even a cut-down allen wrench in my turbine housing to tighten it down, and no box-wrench will work either. I'm going to try stage 8, brb.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:09 PM   #64
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eureka!
great scott! ive got it.

i remember seeing this along time ago, wouldnt this work!!!


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Old 05-26-2009, 01:43 PM   #65
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That'll keep the plate tight onto the manifold, but a weld will do the same thing, and the nuts will still back off those bolts.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:45 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
That'll keep the plate tight onto the manifold, but a weld will do the same thing, and the nuts will still back off those bolts.
i think the issue we are trying to fix is the studs. not the nuts

oh and i dont think welding it is a good idea, seems like a jimmy-rig.
what if ur turbo fails? what if u want to upgrade? u need to replace everything.
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:53 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyson87 View Post
i think the issue we are trying to fix is the studs. not the nuts

oh and i dont think welding it is a good idea, seems like a jimmy-rig.
what if ur turbo fails? what if u want to upgrade? u need to replace everything.
Or you just grind the welds down, replace, re-weld.
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:59 PM   #68
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What about running bolts, drilling a hole through the manifold to pin it in place?
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:05 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
What about running bolts, drilling a hole through the manifold to pin it in place?
that or weld the studs in the manifold.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:14 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
What about running bolts, drilling a hole through the manifold to pin it in place?
Not an option for cast log style BEGI or FM mfs. Plus bolts/nuts tend to loosen more than stud/nuts. There is a reason they use studs.
Quote:
Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque loading. Here's why. When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being "twisted" while its being torqued tot he proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a relaxed mode - never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut. if everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only in the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqud after the engine has been run.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:17 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
What about running bolts, drilling a hole through the manifold to pin it in place?
I would use safety wire on bolts before I did that. With safety wire, the bolt can be re-torqued if need be. Also much easier to remove the turbo.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:18 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Not an option for cast log style BEGI or FM mfs. Plus bolts/nuts tend to loosen more than stud/nuts. There is a reason they use studs.
Not really. Making it so that the nuts don't come off isn't so hard. The hard part is making sure the studs don't come out of the manifold. It's also easy to make the studs not twist out, but once some of you actually drive hard, you will find that the studs just come straight out of the manifold, no twisting or anything. Simply shearing the threads off of the stud.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:24 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashnscar View Post
Or you just grind the welds down, replace, re-weld.
/thread
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:28 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashnscar View Post
Not really. Making it so that the nuts don't come off isn't so hard. The hard part is making sure the studs don't come out of the manifold. It's also easy to make the studs not twist out, but once some of you actually drive hard, you will find that the studs just come straight out of the manifold, no twisting or anything. Simply shearing the threads off of the stud.
Studs shear, you retighten, they shear more and finally break loose. Yes, exactly that will happen with bolts that go through too. Doesn't matter that we can fix the nut or the stud. We need to fix both at the same time. Thus tack weld nut to stud and nut to turbo and turbo to mani. I am going to have this done soon.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:42 PM   #75
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I did not have problems with self-clinching nuts coming loose from the studs. So I would think that tack-welding the studs in place would be enough. Bend-tab nut plates and safety wire could be used on the nuts for extra insurance. That way it can still be disassembled without grinding.
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:03 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spookyfish View Post
Audi uses 8mm and they just stay on. They engineered the entire engine, turbo, exhaust in terms of load, vibration, movement, etc. We're just sucker slapping a turbo to a NA car, much like the Honda guys...


That's what I'm saying. Because we are asking our flange studs/bolts to do more than just clamp the turbo down. Our problems come from a variety of side loads, vibrations, heat, improper sized holes, wrong material, improper torquing, poorly supported exhaust system, excessive motor twist, ect. I think 8 and even 10mm are just too small for what we are asking them to do.

If you are having issues with the threads shearing off the stud you likely need more thread area. Increasing the diameter, pitch, alloy and length may resolve your issue.

Of course there is the possibility that there is just too much going on and welding the turbo to the manifold is the final solution, but I think most of us would like to avoid that.
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:16 PM   #77
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Someone has to start calling FM, Begi and M-Tuned every day about switching their stuff to V-bands




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Old 05-26-2009, 05:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_man View Post
Someone has to start calling FM, Begi and M-Tuned every day about switching their stuff to V-bands
Problem with that is then you can no longer use cheap turbos... have to buy a brand new $1200 turbo. But yes, v-bands are nice.
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:32 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_man View Post
Someone has to start calling FM, Begi and M-Tuned every day about switching their stuff to V-bands



I talked to FM about this on Sunday. They said they considered it because its a good idea, but they chose backward compatibility. If I had known what I know now, 2 years ago, I'd have v-bands and a tubular manifold.
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Old 05-26-2009, 05:35 PM   #80
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Well, talked to ya Friday, but wanted to post here and just say "I love it when a plan comes together!"
Glad it's all you'd thought it would be and then some.
Now we just need to get mine boosted and I'll be in the same boat. I'm to the point, where I just don't think there's much left in my car where it stands now.
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