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Old 01-02-2008, 09:27 PM   #61
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To be honest Ben I had not been following the Elphaba 1.6 saga. I will absolutely take you at your word. Though it's true that a "bunch" and a "few" can be argued as semantics I maintain that the number is far less than is being alluded to and that terms like a bunch are misleading at best. So we are still at the count of 1. Any more?
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:28 PM   #62
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I know there is another heavily documented one. i don't really follow up on anything SCer people do, because it most of the support was done/perfected 15 years ago, and it's still new technology the most of them now.
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:43 PM   #63
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I think this sums our problem with Tom:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom
All we do with the 2 PC-Pros is tune the first one for about 13:1 and then adjust the E-Cool for about 12:1. Let me know how I can help and I will try.
my intercooler doesn't provide a safe AFR to slow the mixture, thus decreasing the peak pressure away from TDC, thus increasing my knock resistance. What my intercooler does is cool the air charge to create dense safe intake temperatures, not only increasing the amount of oxygen to burn, but also increasing the knock resistance.

There's a big difference between the graduating with a D average vs. With Honors
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:14 PM   #64
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What went unsaid in that quote was that after lots of experimentation and observation using the 5th injector to provide one point of AFR richness ALSO provides the needed cooling for the charge air. It is not because the AFR is 12:1 that enough cooling has taken place, but because the needed amount of liquid has been atomized into the charge to quelch knock at 190 hp. Otherwise you could just ask the PC-pro to give the main injectors 12:1 and you'd be all set. What he was saying is that if you start at 12:1 and THEN add one point AFR you'd be too rich and if you add 2-3 AFR points Via the 5th injector you're over saturating the charge air. I won't pretend to argue engineering with you. I'm out of my league in that case. As I said earlier I have no issue with your debate re: intercooler vs injected fluid cooling. I'll let you and Magna have at that one. I also don't mean to be obstinate or arguementative. It's just seeing a bunch of over-the-top comments that are unsubstatiated being repeated and unanswered brings out the fairness in me, and I have to respond.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:23 PM   #65
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being over the top is where it's at.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:26 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Sorry, I have to recant some of the previous post. I confused the dyno chart posted here with elphaba's chart on the FFS website. It's actually looks like the motor was underfueled at higher rpm, not overfueled. That's because the fueling system was beyond capacity.

I stand behind the rest of my post though.
lean is mean.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:29 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
There's a big difference between the graduating with a D average vs. With Honors
<--- Dean's list bitches

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal pat View Post
To be honest Ben I had not been following the Elphaba 1.6 saga. I will absolutely take you at your word. Though it's true that a "bunch" and a "few" can be argued as semantics I maintain that the number is far less than is being alluded to and that terms like a bunch are misleading at best. So we are still at the count of 1. Any more?
The total amount of failures is not as alarming as the frequency and percentage of total. Sure, the Link Piggy, ELF, and other poor EM products have done their fair share of turning motors into paperweights, but there was a time this summer where it seemed like PCPro was taking out 1 motor per week. I don't remember names. But I can recall that "go slow to go fast" moron who went through quite a few motors. He was the guy who claimed that his car was tuned to 13.5:1 in boost by a SM shop. I 100% do not believe that. SM racecars won't be reliable at 13.5:1.

The elphaba info is all contained in the only thread in the 1.6 section of the FFS forum. The link was posted earlier in this thread.

Also, I will not argue that some motor failures were due to the fact that overly aggressive pulley ratios were used for the engine management employed. But it begs a question: Where did these pulleys come from? It would be super irresponsible for Tom to sell them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve View Post
The Pc-Pro worked fine for what it is and the dyno showed the fueling was fine. However, my research has shown (IMHO) there are better options for the money.

I was fortunate enough to pick up a '94 with Corky's MOAB for a fair price and will still have a SC car to play with. Currently the car has an AFPR in it and I do not want that for fueling anymore than I want to stick with the Pc-Pro. My plan for this car this spring is bigger injectors and a MegaSquirt. I now want as much power as can get for the $$$.

I feel the Pc-Pro is fine for those who want an easy solution and are not concerned about maximum power or value for the dollar. I simply no longer fall into that catagory.
I agree with your summary. The area where I take issue is that this marginal type of EM is employed in a kit that runs on the bleeding edge. If used with a bit lower boost pulleys (say 180 whp) then these failures would be reduced to 0 or nearly 0. When used at 200-210, we'll continue to see failures. Probably starting around March or April. Anyone want to do a pool? If your date "wins" you get a cheeseburger (at your own expense).
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:31 PM   #68
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moral of the story:
running pig rich to either "cool the charge" or whatever bullshit reason there may be is stupid, even if you're Rip Taylor.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:52 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal pat View Post
What went unsaid in that quote was that after lots of experimentation and observation using the 5th injector to provide one point of AFR richness ALSO provides the needed cooling for the charge air. It is not because the AFR is 12:1 that enough cooling has taken place, but because the needed amount of liquid has been atomized into the charge to quelch knock at 190 hp. Otherwise you could just ask the PC-pro to give the main injectors 12:1 and you'd be all set. What he was saying is that if you start at 12:1 and THEN add one point AFR you'd be too rich and if you add 2-3 AFR points Via the 5th injector you're over saturating the charge air. I won't pretend to argue engineering with you. I'm out of my league in that case. As I said earlier I have no issue with your debate re: intercooler vs injected fluid cooling. I'll let you and Magna have at that one. I also don't mean to be obstinate or arguementative. It's just seeing a bunch of over-the-top comments that are unsubstatiated being repeated and unanswered brings out the fairness in me, and I have to respond.
Feel free to respond, argue, challenge, and object. That's what we do here, and do so without fear of reprisal, bannation, or deletion. But I'd sure like to see someone (like Tom) install an EGO sensor and EGT sensor in each exhaust runner. Or let's start easy, like with an IAT probe post blower.
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Feel free to respond, argue, challenge, and object. That's what we do here, and do so without fear of reprisal, bannation, or deletion. But I'd sure like to see someone (like Tom) install an EGO sensor and EGT sensor in each exhaust runner. Or let's start easy, like with an IAT probe post blower.
IIRC he did the IAT stuff, and from what I've heard the probe was right in the middle of the 5th injector spray, you can guess what happens with the temperature readings when it gets a fuel bathe ...

The EGO and EGT stuff ... you're asking way too much
At this point the guy can't understand simple things as FPR and torque. EGO and EGT is years from now and then he will probably call the EGO and EGT with some tricky marketing names and start claiming he invented the water heating ...
Can you believe he can't figure out basic physics like rotational forces and argue to the point he started looking for back-up by some Dynojet marketing guy ...? And he claims being an engineer ...

Last edited by j_man; 01-03-2008 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 01-02-2008, 11:41 PM   #71
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I just think Tom should change the FFS name to FOS....it would all make more sense that way.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:20 AM   #72
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The latent heat values of Gasoline is 350 kJ/kg; Water 2256 kJ/kg...enough said.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:51 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal pat View Post
What went unsaid in that quote was that after lots of experimentation and observation using the 5th injector to provide one point of AFR richness ALSO provides the needed cooling for the charge air. It is not because the AFR is 12:1 that enough cooling has taken place, but because the needed amount of liquid has been atomized into the charge to quelch knock at 190 hp. Otherwise you could just ask the PC-pro to give the main injectors 12:1 and you'd be all set. What he was saying is that if you start at 12:1 and THEN add one point AFR you'd be too rich and if you add 2-3 AFR points Via the 5th injector you're over saturating the charge air. I won't pretend to argue engineering with you. I'm out of my league in that case. As I said earlier I have no issue with your debate re: intercooler vs injected fluid cooling. I'll let you and Magna have at that one. I also don't mean to be obstinate or arguementative. It's just seeing a bunch of over-the-top comments that are unsubstatiated being repeated and unanswered brings out the fairness in me, and I have to respond.
If you would just listen to Scot you would know the answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
The latent heat values of Gasoline is 350 kJ/kg; Water 2256 kJ/kg...enough said.
Go ahead and debate the effectiveness and i will enjoy it pure and simple. Elepha is going to be trying for the 3rd time sometime next week lets see how that goes. I still hope for the best but if it fails this time then it will confirm that i was wrong about FFS and them being a nice reliable product i hope i am not wrong though.
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