Peter Pan Coolant Reroute
 

Parts you need

You need to go to hydraulic supplies store and purchase the following
1/2 straight brass fitting - around $4.00
*3/4 brass stopper (If you have a turbo I am using a 3/4 to 6an 90 degree elbow) - around $5.00
1.8 Miata thermostat outlet coolant housing
Protege water pump inlet coolant housing (If you want to keep Power steering and A/C look for Mercury Capri) - $10.00 junkyard
Discount Autoparts coolant hose part # 300077 - around $6.00
2 Throtle body AIC clamps
JB Welb $3.00
sand paper $2.00
silver paint $3.00

Grand total $33.00
Look at the pics / I am ready to debate.

I've already been down this road with you. I'll let someone else "debate" ya.
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I'm totally not an expert, but that doesn't seem like it would solve the major issue as you still have coolant entering and exiting the front of the head.

It seems, thought it's hard to tell from the pic, that you've probably only solved the issue of the heater core coolant going back into the head without ever hitting the radiator. But that's a minor nuisance compared to the bigger issue.

Sometimes, it takes time to digest information, assimilate and understand it well. I suggest you keep looking at the reroute pics / do your research before you comment.

lots of pics of the same two braided lines and no explanation :dunno:

Pure speculation, but it looks like you're taking the heater core feed from the front of the head and taking the heater core return and putting back in at the water pump outlet. That's not that different than OE.

The two most common approaches to reroutes either address A) evening out coolant flow through the head and block to get even cylinder cooling or B) avoid putting the heater core coolant back into the engine to reduce temps.

edit: I thought this looked familiar

another edit: are those turbo coolant feed and return lines?

Why don't you facilitate our "research" by providing more details so we are more prepared to have a meaningful "debate".

Word

I predict that this will be useful to you Hyper as this thread progresses
http://www.kotaku.com/assets/resourc...flame_suit.jpg

although I have a feeling in my gut that things will resemble this soon:
http://origin.arstechnica.com/journa...flame_suit.jpg

Since I have nothing useful to say here, ill refrain form posting any further :)

I can't write with this stupid mouse!

I need a complete unmolested diagram of the cooling system. As to how the water pump flows water through the motor.

I see your point. Your rerouting the flow from the heater core to the front. If the flow goes through the motor and out both ends your good.

But I see three different ways water can flow on this. This hole miata setup looks like they got drunk an slept with old asian men.

So basically I need a flow diagram of the coolant through the motor.


If someone has one. Please post it.

That will be the basis of the discusion.

And don't start that I can't spell bs. We ALL KNOW THAT!

Yeah, this way only the coolest coolant enters the turbo which auto preheats the coolant anyways. By bypassing the coolant the way I did it, the turbo gets the coolest coolant, at the same time the fresh coolant that comes from the lowe radiator hose doesn't mixed with hot coolant from back of the engine anymore.

Coincidently, the same theory was explained in solomiata.com.

Just FYI, factory Thermostat in the front, in the back of the engine, the coolant lines were left intact as it comes from factory.

It would be helpful to have a diagram of the system. Instead of marking up the pictures, draw an illustration of the flow. Something along these lines: http://solomiata.com/images/RobEbersol-coolantpath2.jpg (no, I can't draw that well either, but you get the idea.)

Lacking any detail, it appears to me that you have left the back of the head alone, such that water flows out of it and into the heater core. I note only two obvious changes:

1: The return from the heater core appears to go into the thermostat housing, on the engine-side of the thermostat. As a result, the mixing manifold on the inlet to the water pump has been replaced with one that has only a single large inlet, for the lower radiator hose.

2: The coolant feed to / from the turbo is placed between the thermostat housing (pre-thermostat) and the fitting down by the water pump inlet. This location originally had a rubber hose between these two points.

Is that both an accurate and complete summary of the changes?

yeah, you and Toddcod assimilate pics / diagrahm very well. I am using a Protege waterpump pipe housing

someone please post a diagram of the miata cooling system. I think I senior member, "Toddcod" needs to understand.

I like your braided coolant lines. I shoulda done that from the beggining..

This re-route doesn't really do much and isn't much of a re-route.

While it is very simple, because you really are only dealing with "replacing" the heater core lines, the same amount of effort or money could be spent re-routing all of the coolant, and pulling all the hot water from the back of the head, instead of the front, which is where it is put in to begin with.

...... just another forum based comment. Start reading the internet write-up I just posted below. I'll respond to your bias comments later.

Solomiata : Engine : Cooling system reroute

http://solomiata.com/images/RobEbersol-coolantpath2.jpg


This is how I'm going to do it...Just the source for the heater core will be just in front of the thermostat at the rear of the block.

Just an observation:

Hyper appears to have routed the heater return pre-thermostat. This is an area of equal (perhaps slightly greater) pressure than the heater outlet at the back of the head. Which means little to no (possibly even reversed) flow through that circuit.

What say the rest of you?

??? I left the cooling system stock in the back. The thermostat is still in the front.

Yes, which means your heater source and return are on the same side of the thermostat. Which means there is little difference in pressure between those two points. Coolant won't flow from one point to the another without a pressure differential.

Due to it's proximity to the water pump the pressure may be higher at your new plumbing point relative to the stock outlet at the back of the head. Thus reversing flow through the circuit.

Curious to see what our learn'd friends think.

I realize this wasn't directed at me, but having read all of your posts, the entire solomiata site, and pretty much every word that's been written about the Miata cooling system over the past few years, here are my observations:

1- As MazDilla astutely notes, the fact that your heater core return is plumbed into your thermostat housing means that you are going to have virtually zero flow through the heater core when the thermostat is closed, and relatively little flow through it when the thermostat it open- the thermostat itself is a restriction which will create a localized high pressure area relative to the radiator, resisting the flow of coolant from the heater out to the radiator. The pressure in the back of the engine would have to be higher than the pressure in the front in order for coolant to flow through the core, but in reality there will be very little pressure differential between the two points. Both ends of the heater are connected to points in the system that are on the discharge side of the pump, and thus at relatively equal pressure.

2- Because of the above, you are also going to have relatively little circulation of coolant through the engine in general when the thermostat is closed. The only means I see for water to circulate anywhere when the engine is cold is from the thermostat housing through the turbo and back into the water pump. There will be significantly uneven heating of the engine, with localized zones of varying temperatures.

3- Since there is no incentive for water to move through the heater core (which in both your design and the factory design is the only way for coolant to flow through and exit the back of the engine) the coolant in the back of the engine is going to be relatively stagnant, even when the thermostat is open. The difference is that since the factory put the heater return at the pump inlet, at least coolant flowed through it, even if much of it went right back into the engine without being cooled. The predominant path of the coolant in your system (when the thermostat is open) is going to be from the water pump outlet, up through the front of the block, and then directly out the thermostat into the radiator. As a result, the front of the engine is going to be cooled properly, while the back of the engine is going to overheat.


You've actually made the situation far worse. Relocating the heater return to the thermostat body means that very little coolant is actually going to circulate through the engine itself. Sure, eliminating the mixing manifold means that the coolant itself is going to be quite cool indeed. It's going to come in from the radiator, be pumped up into the front of the engine, and then go right back out the thermostat without absorbing any heat from the engine.

that's the point...you put the heater core return behind the thermostat....it will only flow when the thermostat is open.

...And very poorly even then.

There is no incentive for coolant to flow all the way through the engine, from front to back and bottom to top, then out through the heater core, and then all the way back around to the thermostat housing. The path of least resistance is straight up around #1 and then right out the front.

Irony is the word that comes to mind here.

not so fast buddy.

A variation of this setup not yet discussed on my behalf easily is done by simply putting a freeze plug in front of the engine and keep the same setup you all see on the pics. The choice will be to use bigger coolant lines from the back of the head or just keep as it is without any thermostat in the back since coolant will be forced to exit through the back of the engine and will be exiting without any issues.

A simple add on of a freeze plug in front of the will create greater flow of fresh coolant from the water pump all the way to the back to the to the heater core wich will eliminate any of the concerns raised by Mr. Joe Perez. At the same time to hot coolant and fresh coolant will not be mixed anymore. At the same time, it makes more sense to me to run a thermostat in the front or a modified thermostat in the front as I already said before.

The idea I talking about may be misunderstood here, but for sure with the freeze plug any issues raised by Mr. Perez regarding coolant exiting from the back of the engine through the heater core through the front thermostat as you see on the pics should be no problems at all.

Joe Perez and group do you understand?

Where precisely would you place the freeze plug, relative to the outlet on the front of the head, the thermostat housing, the thermostat itself, etc?

(Also, don't get too riled up just yet. We're open to new ideas, but some convincing is required when they run contrary to the sum of our previous experience.)

i not looking for ideas from anybody as you can see the idea, the concept is already done.. the freeze plug will be placed as it comes in all protege engines. in front of the cylinder head ,it makes more sense for me toleave the thersmostat in the front as i already said.

A bit late, but I just noticed something here. The way I see it, the turbo is actually going to be fed with the hottest coolant in the system, given the rest of your configuration. Since the front thermostat housing it the "last stop" in your system before the radiator, and this is where you're taking the coolant from for the turbo, you've preheated this coolant by passing it through the engine.

From a practical standpoint, pretty much everybody has their turbo water lines plumbed the same way you do. In the factory configuration, there's a little water outlet on the bottom of the thermostat housing, and a rubber hose that goes to the mixing manifold. This was done so that when the thermostat is closed, there is always some coolant circulating around the bottom of it, to ensure that it opens when the average temperature of the coolant in the engine warrants is.

This spot happens to be a tremendously convenient place to plumb the turbo in, and it's one that has an excellent pressure differential across it. Check out the installation manual for FM's turbo kits and Bell's turbo kits to see what I mean. On the first page of FM's manual, there is a high-resolution picture of the overall system that shows these two coolant lines quite clearly. I've highlighted them for you in this image:

http://img19.picoodle.com/img/img19/...Mm_7bc0d1a.gif

So let me be sure I've got this, because I don't want to misinterpret you. You're saying that you'd drive a freeze plug into the opening at the front of the head, and then mount the thermostat housing over top of it, leaving everything else exactly as it is in your pictures, yes?

sir your r basically completely wrong on that comment. the turbo lines were istalled accordingly as the miata cooling and turbo system flows. i know it is difficult to see on the pics but the lower braided line feeds the turbo with fresh coolant and then exists to the top line in thermostat housing

yes, difficult to digest si? but that's it

I think you are confused about the direction of flow. The lower braided line does not feed the turbo. It's plumbed to the water pump INTAKE (suction side), drawing water from the thermostat housing through the turbo.

Hyper, it is your digestion, or rather your entire understanding of the Miata cooling system, that needs to be corrected.

You have a line running from the water pump inlet to the turbo. The pressure here is very low. You have another line running from the thermostat housing (pre thermostat) to the turbo, the pressure here is fairly high. Water will flow from high to low pressure, so the water is actually flowing the opposite direction from what you think. The water in those lines will be flowing from the thermostat housing through the turbo, and into the water pump inlet.

If you stick a freeze plug in the front of the block with your setup, your flow will look like this:

With the thermostat open: Water flows through the water pump, out the back of the head, through the heatercore, through your lines, through the housing, through the thermostat, to the rad, and back to the waterpump. This circuit is very long, and very restrictive. Your car will overheat running like that, there won't be enogh flow through the rad.

With the thermostat closed: water won't flow at all, aside from the small amount through the turbo, and through the intake and EGR stuff depending on the year. Your heatercore won't work, your head will have virtually no coolant flow, and you will have localized boiling and overheating in the head.


Your current setup is bad. There will be very little flow to the back of the head and you will have localized boiling there, and I would expect the entire engine to overheat because you have damaged the efficency of the cooling system so much. Your proposed reroute with the freeze plug is worse.

I am so shocked at how nice everyones been on this thread. Eli, I'm confused as to where this freeze plug your talking about should go. What I'm seeing is that your acknowleding that putting a freeze plug would be better than what you currently have yet your stating also that the way things are now is best?

Wait for it...

I'm curious as well as to what your last setup was like. The one where you kept overheating and how this one is an improvement. Also, did you ever actually get your car running again to actually test this idea of yours out?

:werd: That's the return according to Mazda (and their diagram)... maybe they're wrong. :giggle:

I don't get your concern for coolant temps at the turbo. Did you measure the coolant temp there? did it exceed spec for the turbo?

It seems like you've done a lot of hard work without any data to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

I think you may be looking at this backwards. Here's an image you posted earlier which clearly illustrates both sides of the turbo's water feed:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/att...0x480-255d.jpg

As we can see, one side of the turbo is connected to the thermostat housing (before the thermostat) and the other side is connected to the Protege pump inlet, which is where the lower radiator hose attaches.

You seem to be of the opinion that coolant is going to come out of the Protege fitting, flow through the turbo, and then return to the thermostat housing. In reality however, the opposite is occurring. The Protege fitting is on the suction side of the water pump, and the thermostat housing is on the discharge side of the pump. Therefore, the pressure in the thermostat housing is always going to be greater than the pressure in the Protege fitting whenever the water pump is turning. As a result, hot coolant from the thermostat housing will flow into the turbo, and then hotter coolant will flow from the turbo into the Protege fitting and be drawn back into the pump without ever passing through the radiator. The Protege fitting is now a mixing manifold.

Fortunately, the turbo is symmetrical insofar as the water jacket is concerned- there is no distinction between the "in" and "out" fitting. And since the volume of coolant flowing through the turbo is relatively small, the overall effect this bypassed coolant will have on the system is relatively small. As I said earlier, Bell and FM turbo kits are plumbed in exactly the same way (as are most water-cooled DIY setups) and this does not present any significant problems so long as the rest of the cooling system is operating nominally.

Unfortunately, as I said before, your routing of the coolant return from the back of the head, through the heater, and into the thermostat housing virtually guarantees that the rest of the cooling system is not operating nominally. The turbo itself (and the forward portion of the engine) will be adequately cooled, however the rearward portion of the engine will experience relatively little coolant flow and thus tend to run much hotter.

No, I just wanted to be certain that I understood you, to leave no room for misinterpretation.

The setup that you describe here (with a freeze plug blocking the forward outlet, and the thermostat housing mounted over top of it) is a definite improvement over your current design. In fact, it is functionally similar to the reroutes being done presently, where the thermostat is relocated to the back and the heater return is left plumbed into the mixing manifold. (At least, when the thermostat is open)

With such a setup, proper warm coolant flow through the engine is restored, since the only avenue for water to exit the engine is through the fitting on the back which feeds into the heater core. Assuming that the heater core continues to be returned to the thermostat housing (on the front), then when the engine is cool and the thermostat is closed, this coolant will exit the thermostat housing via the turbo feed, pass through the turbo, and be drawn back in at the Protege fitting. When the engine is warm and the thermostat is open, most of this coolant will exit to the radiator, with a smaller portion of it continuing to pass through the turbo and back into the Protege fitting, having bypassed the radiator.

I expect that the cooling performance of such a setup would be comparable to that of a rear-mounted thermostat and mixing-manifold returned heater core. In your setup, the rear outlet is considerably smaller than that of a rear-mounted thermostat (thus presenting a restriction to flow through the engine) however the bypass line (through the turbo, and back to the Protege fitting) is also smaller in diameter than the stock heater lines.

On a warm engine, I expect that the ratio of flow through the two avenues would be similar to what is seen in a rear thermostat application, although the total volume of flow is likely to be less, as the water pump is working against a greater restriction. When the thermostat is closed, the total flow through the system will be considerably less than stock (nearly 100% of the coolant must now flow through the turbo) which will not significantly harm the engine, although during the warmup period you may have some degree of uneven heating until the thermostat opens and the temperatures equalize. The back of the engine will still run a bit hotter during this time. Another potential issue is that you will greatly increase the pressure inside the heater core when the thermostat is closed (as it's trying to drain into a significant restriction) and thus increase the probability of the heater core bursting.


I think you really need to sit down a draw a diagram of your current system, as well as any proposed systems. In them, carefully consider the pressure differentials which will dictate the amount and direction of coolant flow through each portion of the system. You may find the results enlightening.



[edit] I'm taking too long to write these and everybody is beating me to the punch. :D

Ok.. is this backwards day or something crazy? Why is everyone being so subtle and nice.... I'm scared....

i'll let u all scratch your head for a while it is difficult to write from the ps3. more pics tomorrow. the reroute concept is not fully disclosed

lmao
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Let me be the first to say...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/891...a29f94.jpg?v=0

Hey, I've seen that BS reply before!!!

This guy loves to "debate", but it's seriously one-sided. No matter how well founded your arguments are, or if you are utilizing something on your car that works the best for you, you are wrong and he is right. At this point, I'd say to just give up trying to pass on knowledgeable information as it will not even make it in one ear to go out the other. He does not care.

Carry on.

Rotflmao! Sorry Eli I'm not trying to antagonize but that was hysterical

Right. No matter what evidence Joe or any other actual expert might scare up (from OEs, established aftermarket manufacturers, etc.), Hyper will simply dismiss it and assert that we can't understand because we're not smart enough, and then throw in some semi-large words to make himself seem verbose. We don't understand, he does.

Maybe the shit eating grin will be wiped from your face if you leave your re-route in it's current configuration and overheat your engine a few times.

OMg I can't stop laughing hahahahahahahahaha im crying

This ought to shed some light concerning his attitude.

That's priceless. Corky (Mechanical Engineer by trade, literally wrote the book on boosting, worked for Bell Helicopter, opened Cartech in '77, invented the boost-referenced FMU and VVT, and currently runs Bell Engineering) is wrong and he is right.

Irony is the only word that comes to mind when I see you call others "forum-fed idiots", Hyper. Seriously. Shouldn't you be outside painting your wiper arms yellow or installing some neon underneath your car?

Ok, guys. In all seriousness, let's not let this devolve into a flame war just yet. I deleted a couple of posts that weren't really relevant from a technical standpoint- depending on what Hyper comes up with tomorrow, I'm likely to undelete them.

Until then, however, I'm really curious to see how he responds to the issues that have been pointed out. Everyone's been pretty reasonable so far, and like a Judge who is listening to the DA ramble on about nearly nothing, "I want to see where he's going with this."

It goes against my character, but just this once I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, as he hasn't actually stooped to flaming or name calling yet. Well, except for that post on CR, but then I agree with him that arguing on CR.net is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still a retard. (And if nobody noticed, Corky did pass the torch a couple of months ago.)

OTOH, if he starts levying unfounded insults against Corky here, I'd be inclined to ban his whole IP range.

Hyper, I encourage you to go put your car on the interstate and drive the piss out of it. Your reroute = Fail. FYI.

please give me a clear point of view as to the issues you talk about, i will respond accordingly tomorrow. also if you can please the remove the non sense comments about the reroute. they do nothing but to deviate this post into something else. thank you

This place is like a locker room, nothing is deleted unless it is ban time. Then they wipe them off the face of the forum, Unless they make fun of them and leave comments that they can't retalliate to. LOL

It's ok, you will get used to it. Everybody stays but strays on comments. We are more relaxed than M.net.

Can we please just ban this fuck? This forum has gone soft recently. Shit like this would never have been tolerated a year ago. He's posted an idea that is clearly wrong, and people have spent a lot of time very politely explaining why he's wrong. Instead of learning from his mistakes, he acts like he's a fucking prodigy and blows off everyone who even remotely disagrees with him. He will provide nothing to this forum except needless, factless dissent. Ban him, delete this thread, and let's get on with our lives.

honestly how much are you getting paid for saying that?? everybody here knows you r a moderator in the miata.net forum so your opinions are bias to begin with. i have not insulted or offended anybody here, if you have any technical question to raise regarding this topic go ahead, and i'll debate with you.

joe perez, i am still waiting.

He's not insulted anyone, just ask him!

:drama::beer:

Not enough.

Everyone here was stunned when I became a mod (including me). My opinions are biased - against you. You were rude on M.net, and then you were rude on CR.net, and then you blew me off on Miata.net again after I provided a polite rebuttal to yet another moronic post you made.

You've insulted nearly everyone you've spoken with on all 3 forums in the last 2 weeks. Your mentality is that everything you do is perfect and anyone who even remotely disagrees with you is simply wrong. If you had a modicum of humility, you'd understand that your "reroute" not only makes things worse by fucking up the pressure differentials inside the cooling system of the motor, it doesn't even solve the main issue, which is the improper flow of coolant through the Miata head caused by packaging issues in the first place. You aren't interested in doing anything except sharing your "perfect" ideas and telling everyone else how wrong they are when they try to correct you.

You are a useless, worthless sack of shit, whose only purpose is to demonstrate to others what a total lack of humility in a person will cause. Do us all a favor and disconnect your internet so we never have to deal with your useless bullshit again.

And others are waiting for some "proof to your truth" so to speak.
Hell, there's still a JB welded piston engine on here that's got more merit than this shit.

i guess this guy, savington is getting a very special bonus for his contribution to the miata.net society. by any chance about your comments, is that your technical question?