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Old 05-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #21
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I'd rather be stabbed in the face than drive Prius.
I would too, Joe. I was just stating that comparison that you could get 4 Prius' that average almost 50mpg average. That is about 500 miles per tank of regular gas.

So say, if one can get 50mpg average. Filled up at 1/4 tank that would run roughly 20.25 per tank.

The Tesla runs about $4.00 per charge either using the 37 hour method or the quick charge method, but the range is realistically around 200 miles.

So the difference is about $8.00-10.00, in Tesla's favor, going the same distance. How long do I need to drive the Tesla to make up the difference in cost, and what is the actual carbon footprint once you factor in the energy that is needed to run the Tesla? Coal or whatever is still being burned to generate the electricity that is needed to charge the Tesla.

On average you may save 17-20 per month driving the Tesla over a Prius.
But based on the cost-

Prius-30k
Telsa-126k

Based on a savings of 20.00 per month fuel cost you would still need to drive the Tesla for 400 years to equal the Prius. Even if the fuel cost doubles then you would still need to drive the Tesla for 200 years, and also your cost to charge the car will increase as well.

I don't care for hybrids or electrics. There isn't a free lunch anywhere.

Since I mentioned gas, why the hell is gas over 2.00 per gallon? Last year it was at 150 per barrel and 4.00 per gallon. Common sense should dictate that gas costing 2.00 at the pump should be around 75 per barrel. What oil is running now should cost somewhere are 1.40 per gallon.

And people said it was Bush's fault....
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Old 05-12-2009, 12:57 PM   #22
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Honda FCX
Doesn't count, it's a lease-only vehicle in one city with a fuel cell so costly Honda wants them all back at the end of the leases.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:20 PM   #23
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The Tesla runs about $4.00 per charge either using the 37 hour method or the quick charge method, but the range is realistically around 200 miles.
But.... Not withstanding the process required to manufacture either car, IF.... and this is a *BIG* IF... 100% of the energy required to power the Tesla was nuclear or hydroelectric... It would be 100% clean to operate. Where the Prius, would not. Sorry, but I do consider Nuclear energy 99% FREE, and 100% clean. Even with the nuclear waste.

People think they're saving the planet with Hybrids and I think its nothing more than a ruse. They're only fooling their own stupidity and other tards who think like them. Even if manufacturing the vehicle was 100% clean it STILL BURNS FOSSIL FUELS!

Not defending either car here as I'm NOT a fan of any type of plug in to recharge vehicle, and I think Gas/Electric or Diesel/Electric hybrids are a joke.. Unless we're talking about Union Pacific... Thats a different story all together.

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Doesn't count, it's a lease-only vehicle in one city with a fuel cell so costly Honda wants them all back at the end of the leases.
I did not know that, very interesting fact.

Holy ****. I didn't look at this before:

About 200 vehicles will be leased over the next three years, primarily in Southern California.
  • Three-year $600/month lease 1
  • Exterior Color: Star Garnet Metallic
  • Maintenance costs and physical damage collision coverage included in lease.
****. That.
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Old 05-12-2009, 02:54 PM   #24
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Juan, I couldn't gather if you were getting on to me about defending the Tesla or not. To clarify, I am not defending the Tesla or hybrids. Again there is no free lunch when it comes to energy. Everything has it's drawbacks.

I actually looked into solar panels for my house. I figured that I get a good 6-8hours a day of direct sun on a certain part of my house.

For 15k I can get solar panels that will produce 150kw a month. That isn't even 10% of my usage, and it would save me about 17.00 a month off my electric bill. It would only take me oh, 882 years of living in this house to recoup the cost.

Alternative energy sources will be out of reach for the consumer to substantially afford to make a difference in anything until it can be produced cheaply. It is just way too expensive at this point.

Back on topic, Joe I think the Tesla does naught to 60 in 4.1 seconds and has 277lbs tq @ 0 rpms. That is quicker than most cars that sell at the 126k mark.

I wonder, can forklift companies can work on it?
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:26 PM   #25
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0-60 times of that are INCREDIBLE. Just watch it go against the Elise!! Reliability... Not very impressive. Still a neat car, I'd rather have the Elise.
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 96rdstr View Post
How long do I need to drive the Tesla to make up the difference in cost, (...)
Based on a savings of 20.00 per month fuel cost you would still need to drive the Tesla for 400 years to equal the Prius.
That's not really a fair comparison, as there's no easily quantifiable way to account for the fact that the Tesla is an exotic sports car which is faster in the standing quarter mile than a Porsche 911, whereas the Prius is an econobox that can barely move out of its own way.

Along the same vein, one might well compare the Prius to an '09 Fiat 500 which, with the 1.3l turbodiesel engine gets better mileage (44mpg city, 65mpg highway, 56 mpg combined), has roughly the same performance figures, costs about half as much, and does not contain several hundred pounds of very toxic batteries.


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I don't care for hybrids or electrics. There isn't a free lunch anywhere.
I don't like them either. But if I had to chose between a Hybrid, a battery-only EV, or being stabbed in the face, I'd pick the pure battery EV, with an optional towable range extender. Fewer compromises.

As to free lunch, I'm with elesjuan here. Nuclear power is as close as you can get to free power, in terms of what is actually viable on a sufficient scale to power an entire country.

And these days, nuclear waste isn't even much of a problem. If nukes interest you, spend some quality time reading about the CANDU reactors. They run on unenriched fuel, meaning raw ore dug out of the ground without refinement, and thus do not produce high-level waste. They're flex-fuel capable, meaning they'll also run on old nuclear warheads (seriously) as well as the "spent" fuel of PWR and BWR reactors (which are what we use in the US). Seriously- all that stuff we're fretting about where to bury can actually be re-used as fuel for CANDU reactors, and once they're done with it, it'll be less radioactive then when it went in.

CANDUs are nearly meltdown-proof by design, and they're capable of being re-fueled while active, so their theoretical uptime is nearly 100%. (Conventional reactors have to be completely shut down, opened up, resealed, and then re-started in order to be re-fueled.)

And the best part is, they're not fiction. There are quite a few of them in use, though none in the US.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:05 PM   #27
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I am down with nuke power. There is a stigma about it here in the US. There is a nuke power plant N. of Tampa in Crystal River. I don't know what the capacity it is running, but I always heard growing up that it isn't utilized to its full potential.

I just don't like alternative vehicles. If I had to choose between a Tesla and a Prius, and if they were to cost the same, then I would choose the Tesla. At that point I can see the value in the Tesla, but at four times the cost, not so much.
A stab in the face may be cheaper.
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:33 PM   #28
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There is a nuke power plant N. of Tampa in Crystal River. I don't know what the capacity it is running, but I always heard growing up that it isn't utilized to its full potential.
The Crystal River Energy Complex consists of five generating stations, of which one (Crystal River 3, built in 1977) is a nuke plant. The other four are coal-fired. The nuclear plant has the highest rated output of any of the five stations (at either 834, 838 or 842 MW) accounting for just over 27% of the complex' total capacity.

According to the NRC's most recent data, Crystal River 3 is currently operating at 100% of rated capacity. It's capacity factor since original criticality has been 90.9%, which is pretty good for a PWR. (Capacity factor is how much power the plant has generated, relative to it's theoretical total output, the difference primarily representing the amount of time the reactor has spent offline for maintenance and refuling.)


And I'm with ya. When I lived in Carlsbad, we were about 25 miles from the two reactors at San Onofre, known among locals as "the ****." (You gotta see 'em from I-5 to fully appreciate this.) I can't honestly recall ever objecting to their presence in any way.


Quote:
I just don't like alternative vehicles. If I had to choose between a Tesla and a Prius, and if they were to cost the same, then I would choose the Tesla. At that point I can see the value in the Tesla, but at four times the cost, not so much.
A stab in the face may be cheaper.
I don't like 'em either. But they're here, and they're a fact of life. Like it or not, government regulation is going to continue to push their development, subsidize their purchase, and ultimately make owning a gasoline-powered vehicle impractical. Over what timescale this is likely to happen I couldn't even speculate, but it seems reasonable to expect that it will occur within my lifetime.

Given that, I'm happy to see that Tesla is at least making an effort to show that electric cars don't necessarily have to suck. With most "boutique" alternative vehicles, it's almost like the designers said to themselves "well, you really shouldn't be driving a car at all. But since you insist, take this horrid little shitbox to remind you why you should be riding a recumbent bicycle instead." Obviously one must exclude all of the present-day hybrids SUVs and such (the ones that get 17 MPG instead of 15) as they exist solely to fill government quotas.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:35 PM   #29
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Along the same vein, one might well compare the Prius to an '09 Fiat 500 which, with the 1.3l turbodiesel engine gets better mileage (44mpg city, 65mpg highway, 56 mpg combined), has roughly the same performance figures, costs about half as much, and does not contain several hundred pounds of very toxic batteries.

Don't knock the Abarth.. In the VERY HIGHLY unlikely event Chrysler brings an "SRT" version of the Fiat 500 here, I'll buy one...



That things looks ALL KINDS OF TROUBLE!!!!
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:31 AM   #30
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I don't really mind the look of the nuclear plants. Actually, I think they look pretty cool. You can see the Crystal River Nuke plant from US 19.

Now, only if the Fiskar Karma can actually make it to the market....That would be a hybrid that I would drive. Allegedly, it will be in production by 2010, and at a cost of 80K. This is the 2dr concept. You can see good pics of the 4 door just about anywhere on the interwebz.



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Old 05-13-2009, 09:55 AM   #31
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Now, only if the Fiskar Karma can actually make it to the market....
Looks a bit like an Aston Vanquish after surprise buttsex.


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Don't knock the Abarth.. In the VERY HIGHLY unlikely event Chrysler brings an "SRT" version of the Fiat 500 here, I'll buy one...
Oh joy. A French car, worked-over by Italians, re-branded as an American car. Lest we forget their "other" special edition currently in production:

(No, it's not a Hoax. There actually is a Barbie edition.)
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:19 AM   #32
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Fiskar Karma
Looks like what would have happened if Chris Bangle went to work at Maserati.
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Old 05-13-2009, 02:46 PM   #33
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I don't know why some people are so worried and afraid of Nuclear Plants. Wolf Creek is 90 miles away from me but looks nothing like a "traditional" Nuclear facility. They built it in like the 70s, its been operating for something like 40 years without any kind of issue. I've never worried about it. Ever.

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Old 05-13-2009, 02:52 PM   #34
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People are kinda crazy over nukes, I blame the media.

My brother is a nuclear engineering major here at A&M (I am Mechanical).

Our goal in life is that I'll design electric cars, and he'll provide the cheap juice.

His project is a '69 Chevelle with a big block, and I just finished turboing this thing. We both know that electrics are the future, and the most practical for most applications.

What most folks don't realize is that an electric motor is more well suited to our driving demands. Battery technology just needs to take another leap or two, and we need to upgrade our electric grid.

There's still plenty of oil to go around (and plenty of things that will run out before oil does), so all of this in an everyday/everyman sense is several decades away.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:20 PM   #35
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Your leap in battery technology will have to be HUGE for an electric vehicle to EVER be successful. Sometimes I drive 1200 miles a week for work. Tonight I'm driving 3/4 way across the state of kansas, should be 286 miles one way. How the hell you going to accomplish sustaining 70 - 80mph for 4 hours straight first off, and second how are you planning on having that recharge?

I'm sure the hell not going to stop every 200 miles and wait 26 hours for my car to recharge.... Not even close. That 1200 miles would take me weeks to drive!

I don't think electric vehicles are the future unless there is a substantial electrical generator on board the vehicle.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:36 PM   #36
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I also commute 1100miles/week, I understand.

Internal combustion was viewed just as impractical not too too long ago.

Electrics won't work for everyone. They aren't practical for colder climates, they aren't practical for cargo, they won't work in remote areas.

I'm talking about your average Joe that will use it like a cell phone. Make a few calls a day, plug it in at night.

And, this is all DECADES away. Progress shouldn't be avoided just because we're not anywhere close. If everyone thought this way cars would still only be capable of 15mph.
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:55 PM   #37
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The battery need not be large enough for a 500 mile trip, or even a 200 mile trip. It need only be large enough for your maximum daily commute. 50-100 miles ought to cover it for most folks. 20 would more than cover it for me.

When you need to go on a longer trip, you hook up the towable range extender. Put simply, it'a a tiny trailer you pull behind the car which contains a small gasoline engine (motorcycle engines are popular) along with an electrical generator. At that point, your car becomes a series hybrid. The main battery provides the oomph to get the car moving from a stop, overtake on the highway, etc., with the TRE producing just enough electricity to sustain cruise and replenish the battery (just like how a normal hybrid works.) When you run low on gas, you pull over and fill up just like an old-fashioned car.

The benefits to this design are numerous. In normal day to day driving you are not carrying around a gasoline engine, with the weight and space penalties that it entails (don't forget the cooling system, the gas tank, the more complicated transmission and clutch system, etc). This frees up space to carry a sufficiently large battery pack to last your whole daily commute. As a result, 100% of your everyday commuting power comes from the grid, which is either pollution-offset (generated by a relatively well-regulated coal or natgas plant some distance away) or truly pollution-free (in the case of nuclear.) You drive to the office, meet up with a transvestite hooker after work, buy groceries, pick up the kids from soccer practice, stop by the dry-cleaners to drop off the pants that were soiled during the aforementioned hookup, and drive home. Then you plug in your car to charge overnight just like you do with your cell phone or your personal massager, and in the morning it's good to go again.

You get the best of both worlds. Battery-only efficiency and performance every day, with gasoline range when you're driving across Kansas.
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:12 PM   #38
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or you could just hook a generator up to the wheels of the car, so it charges itself going down the highway









[/hyper]
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