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Old 12-21-2011, 01:53 PM   #81
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God and Creator mean many things to many people. They didn't say Christian God. People are way too ******* sensitive when they start thinking that deep. Even if you believe in no God, who ******* cares if it's printed on money.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:25 PM   #82
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But the name "God" itself completely alienates any polytheistic religion. Using any phrase that includes "God" in official documents, in itself is contrary to a secular government.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:31 PM   #83
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God and Creator mean many things to many people. They didn't say Christian God.
Well, that's why I specifically quoted (and defined) the phrase "Divine Providence." For an English-speaking person in the late 1700s, there was really no alternate definition of that particular phrase. It was a phrase that you might have commonly heard in church sermons, and referred specifically to a theological belief in the model of God (the "Abraham / Moses / Jesus" God) interacting with humanity on a daily basis in the form of what might loosely be described as an "invisible hand." (I am using that term outside of its normal context as an economic theory. I do not mean to imply any relationship between the two uses.)

Some of the other examples which have been cited ("In God we trust", "One Nation under God", etc) are much later in origin, typically occurring during the mid to late 1800s. They could be considered to be irrelevant to an analysis of the beliefs of the founders of the country, but they could also be considered as evidence of an unchanged and ongoing undercurrent of the Christian faith within the ranks of the government, essentially a continuation of the belief system which was indirectly codified into the original foundation of the nation.


I'm not making an argument for or against religion here, I'm just analyzing the point which bigx5murf alluded to.

Last edited by Joe Perez; 12-21-2011 at 07:11 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:48 PM   #84
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They where clearly referring to The Flying Spaghetti Monster, may his noodly appendages touch you all.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:26 PM   #85
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I totally get that we were founded by religious nutjob rejects from europe. And no doubt even the "toned down" Historical Documents will include references to theism.

I'm just saying that O-ficially, we do not have a national religion. no matter how much my fundamentalist aunt and uncle want to beleive it.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:18 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Unfortunately, I do have to agree with Oliver.

Although you could reasonably argue that the US was fundamentally founded on the basis of tax evasion, it's impossible to ignore the strong Protestant undertones in most of the architecture of the young America.

For example, the US Deceleration of Independence, which could be considered to the foudnational document of the entire nation, states in the first three paragraphs:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them (...)

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. (...)

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
The phrase "divine providence," in the context of a late 18'th century society, describes a theological belief that God (that would be the Judeo-Christian God, specifically) takes an active interest in the day-to-day operation of the world, and exerts influence over it. In other words, they were saying that, in declaring war against King George III, "we rely upon God to protect us."
Sorry Joe, but the founders were deist, not theist.

Quote:
No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our spiritual selves. What is surprising is when fundamentalist Christians think the Founding Fathers' faith had anything to do with the Bible. Without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God."

In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, "Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity:

Thomas Jefferson: "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
-- Six Historic Americans by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again: "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

More Jefferson: "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."
[Editor's note: Jefferson used this word to describe what he considered false teachings placed into the mouth of Christ, as opposed to what he considered the true teachings of Christ. He never used this word to describe the entire Bible.]

John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams: "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine: "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." "Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)." "It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." "Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance." And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Finally let's hear from James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

Among those who confuse Christianity with the founding of America, the rise of conservative Baptists is one of the more interesting developments. The Baptists believed God's authority came from the people, not the priesthood, and they had been persecuted for this belief. It was they -- the Baptists -- who were instrumental in securing the separation of church and state. They knew you can not have a "one-way wall" that lets religion into government but that does not let it out. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. And, perhaps, they knew it was Christ himself who first proposed the separation of church and state: "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto the Lord that which is the Lord's."

In the last five years the Baptists have been taken over by a fundamentalist faction that insists authority comes from the Bible and that the individual must accept the interpretation of the Bible from a higher authority. These usurpers of the Baptist faith are those who insist they should meddle in the affairs of the government and it is they who insist the government should meddle in the beliefs of individuals.

The price of Liberty is constant vigilance, folks. Religious fundamentalism and zealous patriotism have always been the forces which require the greatest attention.
And rather than quote whole the majority of the next article, I'm just going to link to http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...till/myth.html
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:22 PM   #87
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Too all thee haters:

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

-Thomas Jefferson
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:24 PM   #88
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blah/.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:29 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
So who said it:

Adams, or Washington, I've seen Jefferson credited to this as well.
It's a paraphrased quote of Adam's, and isn't a true quote unfortunately. But I did not write the article.

Deism is incompatible with Christianity unfortunately. The christian nation myth is truly that - a myth. The statements in the declaration of independence are classical Deist statements.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:40 PM   #90
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who gives a ****? 75% of Americans claim to be christian. Therefore I'd conclude, that we are a christian nation in ethos. Founded our unfounded.

While you all argue about this nonesense, Shira Law is being actively practiced in our court system.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:40 PM   #91
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I poke fun b/c I am firmly devout in my beliefs.

Yes I know.
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Old 12-21-2011, 04:51 PM   #92
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who gives a ****? 75% of Americans claim to be christian. Therefore I'd conclude, that we are a christian nation in ethos. Founded our unfounded.
Except the founders "ethos" had nothing to do with Christianity's ethos. If I understand you right, you are defaulting to "Back in the 1950s, extremist Christians started to try to take over the Republicans, and insert Christianity into the government!"? If so, I agree.

Quote:
While you all argue about this nonesense, Shira Law is being actively practiced in our court system.
http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/Not...L_MAY_2011.pdf

You have a problem with contract law being enforced, Brainy? I thought you supported free market ideologies?
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:05 PM   #93
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Except the founders "ethos" had nothing to do with Christianity's ethos.
agreed. they were also all Masons/Knights Templar and probably ran train.

Quote:
If I understand you right, you are defaulting to "Back in the 1950s, extremist Christians started to try to take over the Republicans, and insert Christianity into the government!"? If so, I agree.
No, I made a simple deduction. I just dont care what people say or who they pray to.

Quote:
You have a problem with contract law being enforced, Brainy? I thought you supported free market ideologies?
I don't like to read ACLU stuff. It's more than just contract law it's a TARP.

lawfare.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...t_lawfare.html
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:28 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
agreed. they were also all Masons/Knights Templar and probably ran train.


Quote:
No, I made a simple deduction. I just dont care what people say or who they pray to.


Quote:
I don't like to read ACLU stuff. It's more than just contract law it's a TARP.

lawfare.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o...t_lawfare.html


I'm convinced you are trolling me now, Brainy. You link an opinion piece written by columnists with little legal background, referencing "think tanks" and "opinion groups" that are using mere conjecture to try to convince people "MERIKA IS UNDER ATTACK!", and tell me that you place it more highly than an ACLU piece that is sourced, cited, and written by people who would be on the warpath if "lawfare" existed?
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:52 PM   #95
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Oh that Tim Tebow. How cool is he with his god stuff what not??!?
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:01 PM   #96
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Real men love Jesus.

Real Jesus loves Tebow.

Africa... meh.
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Old 12-23-2011, 07:56 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post










I'm convinced you are trolling me now, Brainy. You link an opinion piece written by columnists with little legal background, referencing "think tanks" and "opinion groups" that are using mere conjecture to try to convince people "MERIKA IS UNDER ATTACK!", and tell me that you place it more highly than an ACLU piece that is sourced, cited, and written by people who would be on the warpath if "lawfare" existed?
What about "the corporations"?
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:25 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everyone
(Various links to both prove and disprove the same suppositions)
The internet is so cool. Anybody can write anything they want, wrap it in a little HTML bow, and invariably, someone will cite it as a source.





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Old 12-23-2011, 11:16 PM   #99
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I loved after the game that even though Denver lost, EVERY camera was on Tebow, while the winners were ignored. **** Tebow.
Close.

**** the cameras.

I hope he keeps on thanking god. I hope he starts a church and leads prayer services in the huddles. I hope he has a ******* cross tatooed on his forehead and performs exorcisms during halftime. I listened to some media dipshit rant today about how Tebow gets more attention from the media than Rogers. So its Tebows fault that journalists are dumbasses? ******* media keeps on blasting the same tired story out every chance they get. He is not required to change his opinions or how he expresses himself because they choose put him under a microscope. If they want toask a question, he can answer anyway he wants. If people dont like it, they should stop asking the ******* questions. They should get ******* lives and move on. Except that thats harder to do and doesnt bring in the ratings yet. So they will just keep milking the controversy that should not even be news for awhile longer.

This is America, he can thank god all he wants and ******* journalists can stop following him any time they ******* please. I love how people get so offended by religion.

If he was a muslim roughly half the PC haters would not say a ******* word.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:31 PM   #100
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I would fully support Tim Tebow preforming an exorcism during half time.

This type of thing happens all too often, and I think exorcisms would prevent that:

Or maybe I'm thinking of circumcisions...
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