Baseline MSQ for '99-00, including Abe's Board
09-01-2009, 08:49 PM
#21
I do have the toyota COP setup as well. I'm not so much sure on to increase hardware latency to compensate the extra transistor in the equation (or how much for that fact), but I will try out the setting you posted above. All that latency and lag is out of my league.
EDIT: I've been reading up on some settings on getting the closed loop BC set up on MSIIExtra, and it seems to be working fairly well for many guys at the msextra.com forums. If you guys plan to use the BC PID Closed loop settings, its suggested that you upgrade to MSIIE firmware 2.1.1B released on 8/15/09. The resolution on PID values was increase for better fine tuning.
EDIT: I've been reading up on some settings on getting the closed loop BC set up on MSIIExtra, and it seems to be working fairly well for many guys at the msextra.com forums. If you guys plan to use the BC PID Closed loop settings, its suggested that you upgrade to MSIIE firmware 2.1.1B released on 8/15/09. The resolution on PID values was increase for better fine tuning.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-02-2009 at 03:32 AM.
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09-02-2009, 03:22 PM
#22
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Interesting! I never messed with the others, all I really cared was that my fans came on when they should, though I'll admit I'm sure most other stuff is off too. When I made direct measurements, I could NEVER get it to work. It didn't line up anywhere. Are you using the same value for the bias I am (2490)? Does it actually work (did you measure the temps independantly and verify)? That's the test everything failed - and since the MSQ doesn't record this info, I just do that one change to always make it work.
Those are very different values. Perhaps I'll try them and see what happens, my guess is they'll be way off - at 160* my values work, 82c is 180f... So how your point so much further works.... I imagine it's conceivable, since the 'slope' is more gentle. Will go read your thread.
Those are very different values. Perhaps I'll try them and see what happens, my guess is they'll be way off - at 160* my values work, 82c is 180f... So how your point so much further works.... I imagine it's conceivable, since the 'slope' is more gentle. Will go read your thread.
service manual says:
-20°C = 14.6-17.8kΩ
20°C = 2.2-2.7kΩ
40°C = 1.0-1.3kΩ
60°C = 0.50-0.65kΩ
80°C = 0.29-0.35kΩ
There's 3 values that are very very accurate because they were very easy to measure. That's 0°C, 22°C (room temp) and 100°C.
Last edited by WestfieldMX5; 09-02-2009 at 03:49 PM.
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09-02-2009, 04:53 PM
#23
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I'm more curious how it works in practice - can't wait to see it on the car - i.e. does the MS report 80c when the water temp is 80c. Great work, frank. :-)
Marc, don't worry about the latency, it's a very small factor. Like I said, with a timing light it's pretty easy to measure, will walk you through it when you get there.
As to the closed loop idle, more power to you. And if you get it working, I'd love to see your settings. But I would strongly suggest STARTING with the PWM-warmup or you'll spend weeks chasing down other issues. When the car runs well on warmup, the closed loop idle will be much easier to do. I'll tell you my issues have not been those of resolution.
Marc, don't worry about the latency, it's a very small factor. Like I said, with a timing light it's pretty easy to measure, will walk you through it when you get there.
As to the closed loop idle, more power to you. And if you get it working, I'd love to see your settings. But I would strongly suggest STARTING with the PWM-warmup or you'll spend weeks chasing down other issues. When the car runs well on warmup, the closed loop idle will be much easier to do. I'll tell you my issues have not been those of resolution.
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09-02-2009, 06:59 PM
#24
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As to the closed loop idle, more power to you. And if you get it working, I'd love to see your settings. But I would strongly suggest STARTING with the PWM-warmup or you'll spend weeks chasing down other issues. When the car runs well on warmup, the closed loop idle will be much easier to do. I'll tell you my issues have not been those of resolution.
I think he was talking about the CL boost in this post, not CL idle. I got the CL boost now dialed in quite well.
Greets
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09-02-2009, 07:27 PM
#25
Yea, I meant CL boost control.
Anyway, Im trying set up BC properly too so I can have everything from the get go and just tinker out the settings. I'm still debating if I should attach the KS into the adapter board, or if I should just say **** it and finish building my detcan.
I just purchased a valve control solenoid, similar to the ones that AEM, hondata, and (insert company) uses for their boost control. From reading around the web, the required frequency of the solenoid is 31Hz, but MSII can only a set amount of choices. The closest to the ideal frequency is 26Hz, and the next choice is 39. I don't understand why they wouldnt allow us to just enter a number, rather than to give us a few select choices. Maybe it has to do something with the code, but thats way over my head. Ill see if I can get that specific frequency allowed.
The solenoid part# is 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA, from a local MACvalve dealer. The cost of the solenoid is a measly 17 bucks, without the required fittings. Or you can get it from AEM or whatever for a $90 price markup for the name.
Im sure you can get the fittings else where for cheap.
For Idle, im going to stick with the PWM warmup until kday tests out the PWM multiplier board that Jean was selling on his website. Im curious on his progress.
As for the adapter board, it should be going in tomorrow after I get my alignment. I just changed out the inner tierods on my car and my car is way due for an alignment; gotta give the lousy MSI-Extra one more spin anyway
That reminds me, I still need to get a new bung welded for the new LC-1 I'm hooking up too.
Anyway, Im trying set up BC properly too so I can have everything from the get go and just tinker out the settings. I'm still debating if I should attach the KS into the adapter board, or if I should just say **** it and finish building my detcan.
I just purchased a valve control solenoid, similar to the ones that AEM, hondata, and (insert company) uses for their boost control. From reading around the web, the required frequency of the solenoid is 31Hz, but MSII can only a set amount of choices. The closest to the ideal frequency is 26Hz, and the next choice is 39. I don't understand why they wouldnt allow us to just enter a number, rather than to give us a few select choices. Maybe it has to do something with the code, but thats way over my head. Ill see if I can get that specific frequency allowed.
The solenoid part# is 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA, from a local MACvalve dealer. The cost of the solenoid is a measly 17 bucks, without the required fittings. Or you can get it from AEM or whatever for a $90 price markup for the name.
Im sure you can get the fittings else where for cheap. For Idle, im going to stick with the PWM warmup until kday tests out the PWM multiplier board that Jean was selling on his website. Im curious on his progress.
As for the adapter board, it should be going in tomorrow after I get my alignment. I just changed out the inner tierods on my car and my car is way due for an alignment; gotta give the lousy MSI-Extra one more spin anyway
That reminds me, I still need to get a new bung welded for the new LC-1 I'm hooking up too.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-02-2009 at 07:50 PM.
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09-02-2009, 07:42 PM
#26
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Wow, it's going to be a whole new car. Sucks you spend the first week tuning, but it's worth it. :-)
Ah, yes, share numbers on the boost control! Well, as a place to start. I am all set up for it here, but the old control was so bad I'd never used it. I'd like to take another stab at it, since I would run 2-3 more PSI if it were well controlled and consistent across temperature.
I would most certainly run the knocksense! It pulls timing, even when you're not thinking about it. Once I got bad gas. Once, I had to run a front liscence plate. Both times it totally saved me.
Plus it's fun to watch it flash when you pop 3rd gear out of your tranny. :-(
Ah, yes, share numbers on the boost control! Well, as a place to start. I am all set up for it here, but the old control was so bad I'd never used it. I'd like to take another stab at it, since I would run 2-3 more PSI if it were well controlled and consistent across temperature.
I would most certainly run the knocksense! It pulls timing, even when you're not thinking about it. Once I got bad gas. Once, I had to run a front liscence plate. Both times it totally saved me.
Plus it's fun to watch it flash when you pop 3rd gear out of your tranny. :-(
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09-02-2009, 07:48 PM
#27
I know! I like the Knocksense feature, but the fact that I'm not sure if Im getting false readings or not is really irking me. There's a new schematic for a Knock sensing circuit that is variable depending on RPM. Its posted on MSextra.com forums as well.
I guess I will hook it up and safeguard myself, but Ill hook up my detcan when i start tuning it too.
Oh and if anyone is interested, that new solenoid I posted is very good in holding the right amount of pressure. It is rated at vacuum to about 120psi.
From what people have been saying, the GM boost solenoid leaks profusely at 15psi+
Also, im curious, are you guys still using Megatune? I've made the switch to TunerStudioMS, and Im LOVING it.
I guess I will hook it up and safeguard myself, but Ill hook up my detcan when i start tuning it too.
Oh and if anyone is interested, that new solenoid I posted is very good in holding the right amount of pressure. It is rated at vacuum to about 120psi.
From what people have been saying, the GM boost solenoid leaks profusely at 15psi+
Also, im curious, are you guys still using Megatune? I've made the switch to TunerStudioMS, and Im LOVING it.
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09-02-2009, 08:19 PM
#28
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Lots of pluses and minuses on tuner studio, but I'm sure it's the way to go. If I stopped messing around working on the car and designing boards I could have learned it by now!
I've been following the various knock sensors for a while now, in concept, I don't like how many of them work. The practical answer may prove otherwise. It bothers me that it's set up to work in the MS-II code, but they took it out (truth is it never worked right, so they finally removed the option - but originally, it WAS supposed to vary with RPM).
Anyway, hook up the knocksense, it's good for when you're not paying attention. :-) It'll only be a worst case thing, true, but it's worth having, and easy to set (free rev).
On the volvo forums, they say set it free reving, then test it by putting in cheap gas. :-)
I've been following the various knock sensors for a while now, in concept, I don't like how many of them work. The practical answer may prove otherwise. It bothers me that it's set up to work in the MS-II code, but they took it out (truth is it never worked right, so they finally removed the option - but originally, it WAS supposed to vary with RPM).
Anyway, hook up the knocksense, it's good for when you're not paying attention. :-) It'll only be a worst case thing, true, but it's worth having, and easy to set (free rev).
On the volvo forums, they say set it free reving, then test it by putting in cheap gas. :-)
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09-03-2009, 01:52 AM
#29
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These are my actual closed loop boost settings which work along quite good:
That is my target table:
That is how a random pull looks:
Hope it is O.K. to post this in this thread, but as you discussed this...
Greets
Sven
That is my target table:
That is how a random pull looks:
Hope it is O.K. to post this in this thread, but as you discussed this...
Greets
Sven
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09-03-2009, 03:15 AM
#30
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Interesting, TP at 87%? Not even? The boost does look reasonably flat, but, I'd be curious to see a whole log. It looks like you approach full boost, but not really "hit" it. Still, no over shoot, not bad. the FM valve, or some other?
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09-03-2009, 03:19 AM
#31
it should be ok! it IS related to the MSQ anyhow.
Thanks for posting your settings. So it looks pretty steady at 10-11 PSI. That should be perfect for me as that is my main target boost.
Ill see if I can tinker out the PID settings though, I saw some people having problems with it, I know you had an oscillating problem too, but I think it should have been fixed with the higher resolution on the new MSII-Extra beta firmware.
Looks like another reason for lots of people to go with MSII. DIYPNP people are going to enjoy this.
Thanks for posting your settings. So it looks pretty steady at 10-11 PSI. That should be perfect for me as that is my main target boost.
Ill see if I can tinker out the PID settings though, I saw some people having problems with it, I know you had an oscillating problem too, but I think it should have been fixed with the higher resolution on the new MSII-Extra beta firmware.
Looks like another reason for lots of people to go with MSII. DIYPNP people are going to enjoy this.
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09-03-2009, 03:30 AM
#32
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At msextra.com someone posted this nice description on ow to tune the bosst cl PID:
When tuning, you should try to get as close as possible to the target boost (set the target a good bit lower than the max boost your injectors or engine can handle for safety when doing this) with just the proportional control. Once you've got it pretty close (slightly on the low-boost side is safer, you can use the I term to adjust boost higher while risking less overshoot), slowly increase the I term until you see a little bit of oscillation that tapers off quickly, then back off slightly so that no oscillation is present. You should be pretty much right on your target boost at this point, but you may have a little bit of initial overshoot. Slowly increase D to get rid of the overshoot.
This worked quite good for me - with a little work afterwards.
When tuning, you should try to get as close as possible to the target boost (set the target a good bit lower than the max boost your injectors or engine can handle for safety when doing this) with just the proportional control. Once you've got it pretty close (slightly on the low-boost side is safer, you can use the I term to adjust boost higher while risking less overshoot), slowly increase the I term until you see a little bit of oscillation that tapers off quickly, then back off slightly so that no oscillation is present. You should be pretty much right on your target boost at this point, but you may have a little bit of initial overshoot. Slowly increase D to get rid of the overshoot.
This worked quite good for me - with a little work afterwards.
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09-03-2009, 04:11 PM
#34
Abe, I've been meaning to ask.
I double checked all the settings to make sure everything is good to go when I flash the new firmware, and Im thinking you might have mixed something up. Could you double check?
I went through the output settings, and I was checking the settings for the fan outputs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the output you placed for the fans is on D15, but the PM5 output is for pin# D16. I was reading the MSII manual this morning to double check, and it seems that PM4 is the correct output for D15.
Here is the link of the image I found on this specific page.
MS2-Extra Hardware Manual
Was the manual incorrect?
I double checked all the settings to make sure everything is good to go when I flash the new firmware, and Im thinking you might have mixed something up. Could you double check?
I went through the output settings, and I was checking the settings for the fan outputs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the output you placed for the fans is on D15, but the PM5 output is for pin# D16. I was reading the MSII manual this morning to double check, and it seems that PM4 is the correct output for D15.
Here is the link of the image I found on this specific page.
MS2-Extra Hardware Manual
Was the manual incorrect?
Last edited by Marc D; 09-03-2009 at 07:18 PM. Reason: For a stupid mistake.
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09-03-2009, 05:36 PM
#35
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That's their set up for a 3 bank motor. We're only using two channels, as everyone in the miata world does, I was using the outter two lights for the ignition (D14, D16), and the center, or "warm up" LED for the fans (I thought it was clever since the fans come on when the motor is hot)
From my writeup:
Tacho:
on
JS11
Normal
I'm not sure what you mean by tach then? The tachometer output I ran of JS-11 directly from the CPU. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question?
From my writeup:
Tacho:
on
JS11
Normal
I'm not sure what you mean by tach then? The tachometer output I ran of JS-11 directly from the CPU. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question?
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09-03-2009, 07:09 PM
#36
err ****.
Sorry, i meant that output (D15) is for the FANs right?
I just looked, i know its supposed to come out on D15, but the way you set up your MSQ, its coming out on D16, or the warm up LED. According to the text next to the picture, the warm up LED is D16, not D15 - the Accel LED. So the output setting should be done on PM4 - Accel LED, rather than PM5 - the warmup LED.
Sorry, i meant that output (D15) is for the FANs right?
I just looked, i know its supposed to come out on D15, but the way you set up your MSQ, its coming out on D16, or the warm up LED. According to the text next to the picture, the warm up LED is D16, not D15 - the Accel LED. So the output setting should be done on PM4 - Accel LED, rather than PM5 - the warmup LED.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-03-2009 at 07:20 PM.
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09-03-2009, 08:03 PM
#37
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* D14 (closest to the DB9 connector) will light each time an injector is fired .
* D15 (in the middle) is warm-up enrichment (WUE). It will light if your in a warmup situation (i.e. if the coolant pot on the stim is set to a value where the warm-up enrichment is greater than 100%).
* D16 (furthest from the DB9 connector) is accel enrichment (AE). It will light briefly if you turn the TPS pot on the stim from idle to full throttle.
* D15 (in the middle) is warm-up enrichment (WUE). It will light if your in a warmup situation (i.e. if the coolant pot on the stim is set to a value where the warm-up enrichment is greater than 100%).
* D16 (furthest from the DB9 connector) is accel enrichment (AE). It will light briefly if you turn the TPS pot on the stim from idle to full throttle.
I think you're assuming that the order they are on the list is they order they are on the board. Simple rule about Megasquirt: The one thing is won't be is logical. :-)
I've been using the midddle, warmup, LED for fans.
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09-03-2009, 08:40 PM
#38
Anyway, the board and new MSII is in. I havent tried to start it yet, but im double checking all the settings again, as well as burning the new therm settings and attaching all the other wires and stuff.
I burned the firmware, the newest 2.1.1B, and no problems from there. Everything checks out good so far. We may have a success tonight ^_^.
I am using your settings frank and well see how it works out.
On a side note, they really need to clean up their manuals of errors. You were right abe about the fan and warmup LED. I set the other output that was listed on the MSextra manuals, and the fan never turned off. Once I burned the right settings on what you gave, the fans shut off. Go figure.
I burned the firmware, the newest 2.1.1B, and no problems from there. Everything checks out good so far. We may have a success tonight ^_^.
I am using your settings frank and well see how it works out.
On a side note, they really need to clean up their manuals of errors. You were right abe about the fan and warmup LED. I set the other output that was listed on the MSextra manuals, and the fan never turned off. Once I burned the right settings on what you gave, the fans shut off. Go figure.
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09-03-2009, 09:10 PM
#39
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On a side note, they really need to clean up their manuals of errors. You were right abe about the fan and warmup LED. I set the other output that was listed on the MSextra manuals, and the fan never turned off. Once I burned the right settings on what you gave, the fans shut off. Go figure.
Just check all the sensors, and the timing. If you can get a timing light it's highly recommended. :-) And if you can, take a video of the first start, they are always funny.
And a pic of how you mounted the whole set up would be good.
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09-03-2009, 10:08 PM
#40
its a no go. Im trying to start it, but The ignition seems to be trying to catch. Seems like theres almost no spark, because i do smell fuel. Im going to pull Joe's mods and just run the pull up, maybe that might fix the problem.
It can't be the input circuit, cause i do see RPMs.
EDIT: Im looking through the settings. its frustrating, I dont see anything sticking out at me on why the car wont start. Im getting an RPM reading, all other sensors seem to be working, but the engine just wont catch.
Im running out of ideas what to do. It cant be the MS, I have power, I have no problems in communication. The correct code was flashed and there are no configuration errors. All wires are hooked up correctly, the temperature gauges are reading fine. The MAP sensor is working good too. I'm stumped.
EDIT2: Abe, what injectors are you using? I just noticed your req fuel is about 12, rather than the usual 5-7.00 req fuel. Maybe this could be the reason my car isnt starting.
It can't be the input circuit, cause i do see RPMs.
EDIT: Im looking through the settings. its frustrating, I dont see anything sticking out at me on why the car wont start. Im getting an RPM reading, all other sensors seem to be working, but the engine just wont catch.
Im running out of ideas what to do. It cant be the MS, I have power, I have no problems in communication. The correct code was flashed and there are no configuration errors. All wires are hooked up correctly, the temperature gauges are reading fine. The MAP sensor is working good too. I'm stumped.
EDIT2: Abe, what injectors are you using? I just noticed your req fuel is about 12, rather than the usual 5-7.00 req fuel. Maybe this could be the reason my car isnt starting.
Last edited by Marc D; 09-04-2009 at 01:48 AM.
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