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Old 05-31-2010, 01:19 AM   #1
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Default June 11th is D-day for me. Help!

So here's the deal. June 11th is drag night for a bunch of friends of mine. This one guy has a 1965 Mustang fastback with a built 302 in it. I think it runs like 13.3's and his brother has a 1966 GT 350 with a Boss 302 and it runs like a 13.2. I need to beat both of them. I swapped in my 460's yesterday and hooked up my EBC. My injectors are this part number: 195500-2010. Rx-7 460 cc's. My EBC is this one: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/e...kit-p-285.html
I enclosed my .msq. I am using 3.0.3h firmware and my lC-1 is set to Innovate 0-5v (10:1-20:1)
Friday I ordered my brand new FM Level 1 clutch which I plan to swap in next Saturday.
The datalog is from my car after I just hooked up my EBC, so it's rich....real rich. The EBC over shoots and goes to 207kPa when my boost duty table is set at 180kPa. Why is it doing that? Could some Guru please check this out and assist me as to what I should be doing?
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:25 PM   #2
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Needs more P value.
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Old 05-31-2010, 07:09 PM   #3
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Yeah thanks. First off, I double posted this whole thread accidently...so mods please delete my other one. Also, I can figure everything else out, except why my EBC is allowing way more boost than my table is set for. What's the deal?
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Old 05-31-2010, 08:55 PM   #4
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I'm not sure if megaskeet has it but in my AEM I needed to adjust a Boost Compensation Table to get it to properly boost. Basically it clamps the solenoid too long and can't react open it fast enough. The compensation table allows you to make it open early on to get make it hit the target pressure.

Hope that helps.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:22 PM   #5
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Name:  bstarget.bmp
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This is what I'm looking at and my datalog still shows 207 kPa. I need it do do what the table is showing. What do I have set wrong?
Thanks guys for all your help.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:24 PM   #6
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You have too much I and not enough P.



1. Set Integral and Differential Gains to 0% - To make tuning the Proportional gain easier, set the Integral and Differential gains to 0%.

2. Set Proportional gain to 150% and slowly lower - While tuning Proportional gain, higher numbers mean slower boost climb and lower final boost. For safety, start with a very high gain (150% should be sufficient). Find the RPM that typically spools quickly, and fully and quickly depress the accelerator. Note how much boost is reached. If boost overshoots the target, increase the Proportional gain. Otherwise, reduce the Proportional gain and try again. Do this until boost reaches the target with little or no overshoot.

3. Tune the Integral Gain - The next step after the target is reached consistently is to tune the Integral gain. Starting from the RPM used to tune the P-gain, fully depress the accelerator and watch the boost as the engine climbs through the RPM range. As the engine accelerates through the rev range, the boost will probably creep away from the target. Keep increasing the I gain until the controller adequately maintains the target with minimal oscillation.

4. tune the Derivative Gain - If overshoot cannot be tuned out with the P gain on a quick acceleration, increase the D gain until the overshoot is minimized. Care must be taken when increasing the D gain as too much D gain can over-dampen the effects of the P and I gains.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:29 PM   #7
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Awesome response! I'll try those adjustments. You wouldn't be any chance know when the next DE dyno day is would ya?
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:33 PM   #8
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we really haven't planned anything...
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:35 PM   #9
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I'm about to burn some new settings and then slowly change the P percentage until I'm happy, then mess with I & D, but do I need to change my Algorithm to open loop, or should I leave it in closed loop?

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You have too much I and not enough P.



1. Set Integral and Differential Gains to 0% - To make tuning the Proportional gain easier, set the Integral and Differential gains to 0%.

2. Set Proportional gain to 150% and slowly lower - While tuning Proportional gain, higher numbers mean slower boost climb and lower final boost. For safety, start with a very high gain (150% should be sufficient). Find the RPM that typically spools quickly, and fully and quickly depress the accelerator. Note how much boost is reached. If boost overshoots the target, increase the Proportional gain. Otherwise, reduce the Proportional gain and try again. Do this until boost reaches the target with little or no overshoot.

3. Tune the Integral Gain - The next step after the target is reached consistently is to tune the Integral gain. Starting from the RPM used to tune the P-gain, fully depress the accelerator and watch the boost as the engine climbs through the RPM range. As the engine accelerates through the rev range, the boost will probably creep away from the target. Keep increasing the I gain until the controller adequately maintains the target with minimal oscillation.

4. tune the Derivative Gain - If overshoot cannot be tuned out with the P gain on a quick acceleration, increase the D gain until the overshoot is minimized. Care must be taken when increasing the D gain as too much D gain can over-dampen the effects of the P and I gains.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:36 PM   #10
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it needs to stay closed loop...that's the whole point!

zero out your PID settings. set P to 150%. then go boosting in low gear, just let it spool up fast, you probably wont get near your 180kPa target.

lower the P value until you get damn close to 180kPa.

Then start pulling all the way to redline, im sure your boost will either drop or oscillate as the rpms increase. so then increase I to try to keep it on target.

When you increase I, you might need to go back and alter your P setting up or down a little.

Leave D at 0%.


Once you get your PID settings set you can then alter your closed loop boost targets up or down at will and it shouldn't ever need to be adjusted again.
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:35 AM   #11
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Default Updated boost control settings. Running like @$$.

So I changed some boost control settings and I'm still overshooting a bit, but that doesn't bother me anymore. What bothers me is one of the reasons I went MS2 is cause MS-1 in parallel would usually do the infamous "pop" when you turned the key on. My car never did this with the stock injectors, but ever since I swapped in the 460's it does it every once in a while. Idle AFR's suck too. I'll take fuel out in 1 digit increments and it'll either be too rich, or too lean. There is no happy medium.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, my car with a small assed SR20 turbo and stock injectors ran nearly flawless. After I hooked up EBC and messed with bigger injectors, I'm not really happy with it. Anything over 10psi on this turbo, and it's a high pitch screaming like a whistle. I am however installing an FM Level 1 clutch this Saturday if it comes UPS on Friday. Oh yeah, also I was averaging 29mpg driving in and out of boost to work, with the stock injectors on 8psi max with no flaws. Now it's like I gotta datalog and make adjustments everytime I drive it. Think my issues are cause of my 460's?
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:44 AM   #12
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Here's what's on my mind right now before I go to bed...
Should I swap my stock injectors back in, tune it for the highest amount of boost the stock injectors will handle, remove the EBC, and be done with it? That's what I'm thinking makes sense for my daily driver. Tune the wastegate, F that EBC and those 460's. Opinions?
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Old 06-03-2010, 02:26 AM   #13
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did you get the injectors cleaned before installing them? my injectors ran fine with the ms before i even put on the turbo, but they were solid.
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Old 06-03-2010, 07:43 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgen View Post
Here's what's on my mind right now before I go to bed...
Should I swap my stock injectors back in, tune it for the highest amount of boost the stock injectors will handle, remove the EBC, and be done with it? That's what I'm thinking makes sense for my daily driver. Tune the wastegate, F that EBC and those 460's. Opinions?
Sounds like a fine (albeit lazy) approach. However, if you want to beat low 13 second cars wastegate is not going to cut it.
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Old 06-03-2010, 09:41 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgen View Post
What bothers me is one of the reasons I went MS2 is cause MS-1 in parallel would usually do the infamous "pop" when you turned the key on. My car never did this with the stock injectors, but ever since I swapped in the 460's it does it every once in a while.
This isn't really a function of of MS-I vs MS-II but it's all in the spark output mod. Judging by your ignition settings set to "Going Low (Normal)" I can assume you have the old method of the spark output. If you want to remove the 'pop' you must upgrade to Joe's updated spark output mod. All you need is two 2n2222 transistors.


Quote:
Idle AFR's suck too. I'll take fuel out in 1 digit increments and it'll either be too rich, or too lean. There is no happy medium.
They don't look too bad to me, much better than your AFRs in boost which are completely untuned. You need to work on getting the idle to hold lower and smoother, looks like you idle around 1150-1350RPM. You need to really watch how it's fueling idle with you VE map open and sitting there, you can see where it travels is fuel off of, you have low 40% values and 50% values all in the area it wasnt to idle so as it moves around the rpm/load there's a pretty big variance in the amount of fuel it's injecting.


Quote:
Anything over 10psi on this turbo, and it's a high pitch screaming like a whistle.
maybe that's the motor trying to push raw gas out of the chamber and through the turbo...you're off the scales rich above 8psi.
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Old 06-03-2010, 10:52 AM   #16
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Alright guys, I just woke up and today is another day. I'm gonna clean up my fueling some more, especially in boost, and mess with my boost control some more. I just refuse to give up with this thing as I came this far so why quit? As far as that spark output, I'll look into it at another time. Thanks for all you help guys...more to follow.
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Old 06-03-2010, 11:02 AM   #17
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Maybe they'll back port the Idle VE table into MS-II, MS-III has a 4x4 table that you can scale however you want to focus on the idle cells. so you can tightly scale the load and rpms to get really good resolution at idle.
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:13 PM   #18
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I'm about to go out and do some tuning on my car and a few datalogs. I just have to say this...I can't understand how the spark outputs affect the "pop" when I turn on the key. Stock injectors don't do it, it only does it with my 460's. I know I just said about injectors and the spark output is spark related, not fuel related. I guess I just don't understand why it only does it with larger injectors, that's all. In other words, why does it do it when I swap injectors if it's a spark issue?
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:19 PM   #19
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With your current spark output, when you key on, the coils fire. So each time this is happening it's because there is unburned fuel sitting in the cylinders. If it didn't happen with the stock injectors, it's possible the 460s leak a little when they sit.
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Old 06-03-2010, 01:42 PM   #20
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I think they leak a lot. I just did about 6 datalogs and VE analyzed about 5 times. Each time it didn't really change the cells in vacuum, but in boost over like 155kPa it took a lot of fuel out, but it's still running really rich. The datalog uploaded was in a 2.5 mile run. The first hard boost was a pull from 50mph, and I hit 95 in that little amount of time. I went into full boost 2 different times in that log. My P value is 150% and it overshot my 180kPa target and hit 201.3. My AFR in that kind of boost says 10.10 (cause MS is 10-20), but my LC-1 gauge was reading down near 8, so flooding rich it was. I did change my P value to 175% and I hit about 10psi max and it was like hitting a rev limiter, and the boost would fluxuate between 6 & 10psi. Think I can run 10psi on stock injectors with wastegate? (Just a feeler, mostly a take the easy way out feeler)
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