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Old 07-27-2011, 11:59 PM   #1
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Default Look over log and msq, please? Looking for input.

Sorry for the long, noob-ish post.

If anybody has a few minutes and wouldn't mind scanning this briefly and providing some feedback, I'd appreciate it.

Only issue I've really had is what seemed to be a lean spot at cruise. Between 3.5-4k rpm it would pop periodically. No tach drop or anything. AFR target was the MSPNP default, so not real lean. I brought the target AFRs up to 14.7 and the popping stopped. I'm guessing this can be adjusted out when I get on a dyno and advance spark.

-Spark table is MSPNP default.
-Stole EA settings from here (Paul's I think)
-Wastegate pressure for now ~7 psi
-Somewhere around 6 VEAL sessions of various lengths and temps.
-Car/setup details in sig.

Questions:

-How's the fuel table looking? I'm thinking it's pretty rich. I've done nothing with boost cells yet, besides whatever VEAL has done. Primarily concerned with the rest of the map for now.

-VEAL settings: How do you determine when to adjust the authority tighter and by how much. It seems to hit 40-50 cells every time out, set to "Hard". Only makes small changes of a couple points though.
- I have mad heatsoak on hot startup and plan to move the sensor to the IC end tank at some point.


I know this is noob ****. Just thought I'd throw it out there and see how much crap I take for it....Mainly looking for you guys to tell me if you see anything really dumb.

FWIW, driveability is pretty good. Car not real quick but still better than the JR m45 with bandaids. I'm planning to take this car on an 8 hr road trip this weekend. Anything I should look at real hard from a safety standpoint?

Performance is secondary to me at this early stage. Just trying to rough it in and hoping to dyno in the fall or maybe once it comes back out of mothballs in the spring. I'll turn the boost up then.
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Look over log and msq, please? Looking for input.-dh-ve-table-07272011.jpg  
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File Type: zip Log n MSQ.zip (211.2 KB, 28 views)
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Old 07-28-2011, 09:15 AM   #2
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Your fuel table looks like ****. The numbers need to increase on the x and y axis. Doing this alone will help you a lot.

There comes a point where you have to stop using VE analyzer/autotune and do it yourself.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:27 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Your fuel table looks like ****. The numbers need to increase on the x and y axis. Doing this alone will help you a lot.
OK, fair enough. I guess I really need to learn how to read this stuff. I get it conceptually, but I'm still trying to figure out relationships I guess. When you say they need to "increase on the x and y axis", to me that implies everywhere. So you're saying it looks lean?

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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
There comes a point where you have to stop using VE analyzer/autotune and do it yourself.
I assumed this and have always planned to. I've been using VEA just to get it drivable. It really does feel pretty decent as far as drivability goes, just kind of weak. My goal at this stage is to learn as much as I can and do no harm to the engine as I go.

Thanks, Trey
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:56 AM   #4
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If I'm not mistaken, I think he meant the values of the x and y axis. You have three columns that are only use at or slightly above idle. This is limiting the possible resolution of the much more important higher cells.
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:06 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by curly View Post
If I'm not mistaken, I think he meant the values of the x and y axis. You have three columns that are only use at or slightly above idle. This is limiting the possible resolution of the much more important higher cells.
Hmmm, just when I pondered and convinced myself that he meant that the values should increase more linearly along each axis.

Last edited by soloracer; 07-28-2011 at 11:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:58 AM   #6
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212 row looks fucked

19 row looks like it does absolutely nothing.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
212 row looks fucked

19 row looks like it does absolutely nothing.
Yep, you're right on both counts. They are exactly the same as when I downloaded them. Those are default MSPNP values. I haven't touched them and neither has VE analyze.

So the 19 row is kinda wasted. The upper boost rows haven't been tuned because I'm on 7 psi and don't need them yet.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:09 PM   #8
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The VE value will always* increase with both RPM and MAP and usually increase linearly. If you are not increasing the value as described above, you better have a good reason, which you don't. With what you have currently in

*almost always
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:12 PM   #9
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I circled the poopoo in your table. If you don't understand why I circled them, ask questions.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:18 PM   #10
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I circled the poopoo in your table. If you don't understand why I circled them, ask questions.
Awesome. Thanks. This is what I was after - stuff to make me think!

On quick glance I'd say most of the values circled are either too large of a jump or going in the wrong direction. On the right track?

Looks like the girlfriend gets to do a fair bit of driving on Saturday while I futz with TS....

Last edited by soloracer; 07-28-2011 at 12:24 PM. Reason: grammar ;-p
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:27 PM   #11
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If you saw my fuel map, you'd **** bricks.
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Old 07-28-2011, 12:27 PM   #12
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You're on the right track.
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:41 PM   #13
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I'm guessing the 2x2 grid of 34 is trying to get a stable idle? Mine looks similar, although all values above and to the right are higher. And as Fae said, with row 19, you're essentially running a 11x12 table instead of a 12x12.
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
I'm guessing the 2x2 grid of 34 is trying to get a stable idle? Mine looks similar, although all values above and to the right are higher. And as Fae said, with row 19, you're essentially running a 11x12 table instead of a 12x12.
Yep. That's the only area I've actually spent a good bit of time on. Unfortunately I can't seem to lean it out more than low 13s or it runs terribly. The two values in the 53 kpa row just above that are where it wants to be with A/C on. So yeah, I've tuned exactly 6 cells by hand....

I won't get to play with this any more on the car until at least tomorrow, or probably Saturday. Would it be a bad idea to address the "poo poo" cells with guesstimates until I can go for a drive? Maybe a point per every 10kpa or 1000rpm? Is there some accepted math for this, or is it all just guessing until the thing is under load?

I feel like it might be most educational to leave it as-is and watch what happens when those areas are crossed over while driving.....assuming we can get to those cells on the street.

Most people's tables I look at from here start at 19 or 20kpa. I'll have to look at logs to see if/when my car hits that area I guess. The car idles at 850-ish rpm right on the line between 26 and 35 kpa. Is that unusual? Should I be seeing more vacuum? I'm running a fairly stiff plastic vacuum tube with a pretty small restrictor in-line just before the MS, if that makes any difference.

Speaking of other peoples tables...The screenshot I have from one of Paul's posts seems to have values all over the place. Not that it matters, I'm concerned with my own tune here. I grabbed that along with a bunch of others I found just to kind of study, to see if I can see trends in the maps.
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:45 PM   #15
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Bottom row should be a bit lower than whatever your max vacuum kPa is.

Why are you running a restrictor before your MAP sensor?

Yes it's ok to adjust the cells with guesstimates. In general, assuming the change in RPM between columns is the same, you can manually linearly interpolate between rows.

BTW when you tune your fuel AFR, you can also do basic math to enter the correct values in the map. If you see 10.5AFR and want 11.5AFR, you need to decrease fuel by 8%. To do that you just multiply the relevant cells by .92
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Why are you running a restrictor before your MAP sensor?
When I was putting this all together, I read a bunch of threads where folks were seeing a lot of noise/instability with MAP readings. The usual solution was a restrictor of some sort. Some folks used small fuel filters and someone (y8s?) suggested a welding tip IIRC.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:08 AM   #17
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I like the fuel filter, the welding rod didn't work for me.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:28 AM   #18
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Where is your map reference being pulled from off the intake manifold?

I normally idle around 29-31 kpa area so I would say your idle kpa is fine in that general area.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:33 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Techsalvager View Post
Where is your map reference being pulled from off the intake manifold?

I normally idle around 29-31 kpa area so I would say your idle kpa is fine in that general area.
Teed off the FPR
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:36 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I like the fuel filter, the welding rod didn't work for me.
I'm using this:
http://www.dormanproducts.com/p-26222-493-021.aspx

Frankly I don't even know if I need it. Seemed like a cheap thing to do to just hopefuly, avoid the whole problem. Maybe I'll take it out and see what happens just for kicks.
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