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Old 07-20-2009, 01:25 AM   #1
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Default Mega Tuning problems

I posted this thread last year: https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t27138/ asking why I couldn't seem to tune the miata N/A for some sort of fuel economy. Some of you helped me sort out a couple problems but I'm still at a complete dead end.

What I've done:

Cured Misfire w/cops using a 15,000mfd 110 volt Cap
Re-wired the grounds on LC1 to front of motor
Started from scratch building a new .msq
Double checked all settings
Tested every VE map posted on this board I could find...

Problem is, I've used maps from Hustler, Paul, Brain, etc... With your VE tables the car won't even start. I've generated a new map about 10 - 15 different times using megatune, car won't start. Anything under like 50 in the first four cells the car won't fire up.

Doesn't matter whatever map I load and datalog, anywhere from 20 minutes to 5 hours of logging yields the same two results. 1. Car is so freaking rich that it gets 8mpg, but runs like a rocket. 2. Car is so lean it won't even move. It goes back and forth log after log after log, no matter what target table I use in megalogviewer doesn't seem to make any difference.

What the heck am I doing wrong? This is super frustrating and I'm completely out of ideas on what could be wrong?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:42 AM   #2
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I'm sure you've heard this one, but:

Have you trying reflashing the firmware?
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Doesn't matter whatever map I load and datalog, anywhere from 20 minutes to 5 hours of logging yields the same two results. 1. Car is so freaking rich that it gets 8mpg, but runs like a rocket. 2. Car is so lean it won't even move. It goes back and forth log after log after log, no matter what target table I use in megalogviewer doesn't seem to make any difference.
The AFR target table is not your problem, so just pick a reasonable one and stick with it. For simplicity I just have MLV use the same 8x8 table from the .msq.

It could be a simple case of MLV adjusting too much and overshooting the mark. If you have it set to "easy" then bump it up to "normal," if "normal" then go up to "hard," etc. The better the car runs, the higher that setting needs to be. It didn't take very long on "normal" before I had to bump it up due to MLV overshooting.

FWIW, I've had MLV overshoot a little even when set on "very hard." I wound up manually editing the proposed changes to the VE table such that I cut MLV's suggestions in half. As it got really dialed in, I'd manually edit the changes to allow no more than 2 points richer or 1 point leaner at a time.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:33 PM   #4
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whats your setup like; injectors, tps, etc?

post your msq.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Problem is, I've used maps from Hustler, Paul, Brain, etc... With your VE tables the car won't even start. I've generated a new map about 10 - 15 different times using megatune, car won't start. Anything under like 50 in the first four cells the car won't fire up.
Won't start up at all? When you're turning the key, the startup fueling is controlled by your cranking PWs and those are absolute values in milliseconds. The VE table has nothing to do with that part. If you loaded a .msq from turbo guys who run big injectors then the cranking PWs will be way too low if you've got stock injectors.

I see you've got an LC-1 and COPs but what's the rest of your setup? Put some details in your sig like we tell the noobs to do. I've got my **** dialed in reasonably well if you've got a 1.8 and are still N/A with stock injectors...
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:33 PM   #6
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****, I totally forgot to include the details.

Its a 1995.5 1.8, V2.2, MS1, 029y4, MAF delete, Stock Injectors, Toyota COPs, LC1.

This is pretty much the MSQ I've been using only changing the VE table. The very first thing I tried after the last problems getting this thing running properly it was suggested I scale the VE table without boosted cells. That was the very first thing I Tried.

Going into generate a table, enter some made up values which sounded good enough for a ve table; 1800cc, 900rpm idle @24kpa, 110lb tq @ 5000 100kpa, 115hp @ 5600 100kpa, 7000 redline 100kpa. The table that gives me won't even get the engine started, and if I burn that to the CPU while the engine is running it just dies. Has the idle cells at 22 and my car seems to require 60 in all four of those to even get an idle and read 20:1 according to the LC1. I've also re calibrated the LC-1 multiple times and its a pretty new o2 sensor. Checked required fuel several times and always come back with like 11.3.

Loading the VE table from anyone else also won't even let the car start. Someone mentioned in my last thread that my values need to be extremely high in order to make the car run worth a damn. Several of them exceed over 100 in value especially in lower rpm high map portions of the table. Completely baffled on whats going on here.

The MSQ's attached:

Scott-NA-Tune-10-4-2008-4.msq (35.3 KB) <--- The car runs really well for the most part, but at cruise the AFR shows 7:1 to 9:1, same under WOT.

Scott-NA-Tune-7-18-2009-Final.msq (35.2 KB) <--- Car won't even drive. Idles fine at a good AFR, pretty smooth, but lacks fuel to even accelerate.
Attached Files
File Type: msq Scott-NA-Tune-10-4-2008-4.msq (35.3 KB, 136 views)
File Type: msq Scott-NA-Tune-7-18-2009-Final.msq (35.2 KB, 102 views)
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:34 PM   #7
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that fuel table just impregnated me.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:42 PM   #8
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i bet this works great. should be safe to burn as is.
Attached Files
File Type: msq megasquirt200907211238.msq (35.0 KB, 88 views)
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:40 PM   #9
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Looking forward to getting home and testing that out.

Am slightly concerned about some errors it got, 6 to be exact. Tried to attach the audit.log file but it doesn't like the .log ext and the file is too large for .txt. If its needed I can zip it and attach, but this is the important part here I think:


C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\megasquirt200907211 238.msq:Open
WARNING(01): Signatures don't match.
Found in msq "MSnS-extra format 029q *********"
Expected from ini "MS1/Extra format 029y3 *********"

WARNING(04): Constant "BoostMaxKn" units mismatch, "PSI" in msq, expected "KPa" from ini.
WARNING(04): Constant "KnockBoost" units mismatch, "PSI" in msq, expected "KPa" from ini.
WARNING(04): Constant "OvrBKpa" units mismatch, "PSI" in msq, expected "KPa" from ini.
WARNING(04): Constant "StartWIKPa" units mismatch, "PSI" in msq, expected "KPa" from ini.
WARNING(06): Constant named "latency" remains unaltered.

Warning Details
---------------

WARNING(01) means that the file you read was not written from the
configuration that you are currently using. If the
two configurations were similar, you should see few
warnings and most settings will carry over successfully.
If they were quite different, you may have lots of
problems getting things to work, but you need to make
the judgement call on this by examining the other
warnings above.

WARNING(04) means that you have different units set in the msq and
your current configuration. This almost always means
that the value of the constant is incorrect and you must
manually correct the situation. The easiest way might
be to reset your configuration's settings, say from
Celsius to Fahrenheit, then re-reading the msq.

WARNING(06) means that the constant found in the current configuration
was not found in the file, and thus has not been altered by
the file read. Make sure that the value of the constant
makes sense in the context of the other changes.

C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\megasquirt200907211 238.msq:Close
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:27 PM   #10
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ignore it. Load it locally, and save it back out, then open it; all the errors should be gone.
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:38 AM   #11
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Opened, saved. Re-opened without errors.

Reflashed 029y4 to the car and sent the msq. Cranked and it hardly started. When it would start, I had to modulate the throttle to keep it running. Tinkered with the warmup wizard with no avail. Once it completed warmup I attempted to drive it. Nope. Completely and totally impossible to drive. Car bucks and bounces, o2 pegged at 20:1.

Drove it anyway logging for ~ 15 minutes. Almost hit some jerkoff walking his dog down the middle of a street instead of the sidewalks. After about 3 ~15 minute logging sessions it started to improve in a few places, especially 2nd gear between 2500 - 7500 (oops) and pulled harder than it has ever before. That was the end of improvement, every logging session that was run through megalogviewer just went down hill from there. Progressed back to the point where it was nearly impossible to drive again.

The table is back to huge *** numbers again. Am I doing something wrong in log viewer? Are my injectors bad? Fuel pressure maybe? Can't believe I'm having so much trouble with this **** when it really should be a piece of cake.

Attached is the very last log, and the msq resulting from it. Had to change a few things... over-run settings, taco output...

Didn't mention I'm running the LC-1 DEFAULT settings inside the LC1, is that a problem? Checked my ini file and its configured for the default LC-1 settings..
Attached Files
File Type: msq Scott-Testing200907211238-6.msq (35.2 KB, 62 views)
File Type: xls datalog200907212213.xls (1.06 MB, 66 views)
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:45 AM   #12
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something is wrong with your **** then.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
Drove it anyway logging for ~ 15 minutes. Almost hit some jerkoff walking his dog down the middle of a street instead of the sidewalks. After about 3 ~15 minute logging sessions it started to improve in a few places, especially 2nd gear between 2500 - 7500 (oops) and pulled harder than it has ever before. That was the end of improvement, every logging session that was run through megalogviewer just went down hill from there. Progressed back to the point where it was nearly impossible to drive again.

The table is back to huge *** numbers again. Am I doing something wrong in log viewer?
Maybe. When you are tuning the VE table in MLV, how big are the changes you are making? Does the average cell change by 5, 10, 20?

Quote:
Are my injectors bad? Fuel pressure maybe? Can't believe I'm having so much trouble with this **** when it really should be a piece of cake.
Does the car drive fine on the stock ECU? If it does, you can probably eliminate injectors or fuel pressure as the root cause of your problems.

Quote:
Didn't mention I'm running the LC-1 DEFAULT settings inside the LC1, is that a problem? Checked my ini file and its configured for the default LC-1 settings..
Do you have a gauge for the LC-1, and does it agree with the gauge in megatune when the car is running?
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:46 PM   #14
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how old is your fuel pump?
how old is your fuel filter?

Mine did weird **** like this when I replaced it and all problems went away.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:23 PM   #15
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Don't have an LC1 guage in the car but I did hook a second laptop up to the lc1 and observe the output from that and it matches up with Megasquirt's display. Think i've changed too much to put the car's stock ECU back in but I'll look into that. ALL emissions controls under the hood are gone... Actually think if i just put the MAF Back in I'd just have to change the values for the air temp sensor since I'm using the GM temp sensor, it might work... *sigh*

Fuel filter is less than 2 years old, has maybe 4000 miles on it TOPS.

Fuel pump, rail, pressure reg, injectors are all 14 years old. OEM. I'd really hate to replace any of that **** and have it turn out not the problem.

so have we pretty much ruled out 100% that megasquirt would be the problem??? Whatever I need to replace in order to get this pile of **** running proper i'll do... Just need to know where to start. :(

Also reset the tps values, I didn't mention that before... not like it made any difference at all.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:32 PM   #16
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if its not idling with that map i gave you something is fubared. get it to idle and start pulling the injectors and spark plugs one by one.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:18 PM   #17
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Okay, if I burn the exact unmodified MSQ you posted, the car idles like complete **** at 1200rpm and a 56kpa map.. If I burn one of the modified msq's that I got lastnight, like the second or third attempt it idles smooth at 900 and 23kpa map. WTF is going on with that?

I swapped out the injectors with some other stock miata injectors I had laying around, still does the exact same bullshit. I did find though if I squirt some starting fluid on the injectors the engine speeds up a bit, so I have a vacuum leak on the injectors (I hope) or the intake manifold.


Have another update. Plugged in the factory ECU and MAF, put the MAF inline with the intake. Car started right up, immediately. Idled perfectly. Left the LC1 putting out the wideband signal to the ECU even though it has no idea what the signal is trying to tell it IIRC. Car runs like garbage below 4000. Above 4k it pulls like a striped *** ape. ****, forgot to hook that stupid solenoid up between the intake manifold and the Fuel pressure regulator. Hooked that gizmo back up, made no difference. Had LogWorks open logging my LC1's output and when you're under load under 4000rpm it was 20:1, once it hit 4000 and switched to open loop it started giving it fuel and the car started to pull.

Not sure where to go from here. That kinda sounds like an indication of fuel pressure maybe? ****, I don't know.... The check engine light came on right as I pulled in the driveway but I haven't pulled that code yet to see what it could be crying about. The EGR valve is disconnected from the Electronics, and the two solenoids are missing along with the charcoal can. Its likely one of those three.

Did somehow I mix up the fuel lines when I put the motor back in 2007? Maybe have the feed line hooked to the pressure regulator or something? Would that make the car run this way?
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:58 PM   #18
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Programmed the LC1 output to emulate a narrowband O2 sensor. Car runs like a freaking champ with the factory ECU. 100%.

Problem is 100% megasquirt related, but the question is... What is it??

I've reflashed the firmware multiple times, used Scott's MSQ with his settings that should work, no positive results.

Just got to thinking back to https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t14615/ when I dropped some solder inside my megasquirt with it powered on. That fried the processor, but it was replaced and seemed to be working since. But maybe not?

Could that have damaged U7, Q2 or Q7 at all? I think the solder piece grounded out those outputs or maybe hit +12 volts from the power supply on that side (Pin 21 and 22 from the Proc) and fried one of the injector outputs. Could that have damaged the U7 injector FET driver?
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:25 PM   #19
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thats why i suggested getting it to idle and then pulling the plugs and injectors one by one, seeing if one or two or many might not be firing/squirting.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:44 PM   #20
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If it runs like a raped ape above 4k, then you have enough fuel. I don't want to sound like I'm ignoring a potential mechanical problem, but it really just sounds to me like your **** just needs to be tuned.

The base map from DIY had my car running really lean below 4k. Your MLV-adjusted VE tables make baby jesus cry, and the msq Brain posted would have my car running lean as hell, first because the VE table values look a bit low, but also because reqfuel of 10.2 is too low for a stock 1.8 & stock injectors.

The displacement of a stock 1.8 is 1839 cc, your stock 94-97 injectors are 265 cc/min, and if you plug in an AFR of 13:1 into the reqfuel calculator it will spit out a reqfuel value of 13.1. Even if you typed in 14.7 as your target AFR, the reqfuel calculator would return a value of 11.6. These msqs with reqfuel of 10.2 must be from 1.6 cars (?). With reqfuel set that low it's no wonder you have to run what appear to be really high values in the VE table.

I'm gonna post my msq, but keep in mind there are a couple differences in our cars (I don't have COPs for example, and I run parallel with the stock ECU controlling idle & fans) so you might not be able to just load it and run it. You could modify it for your dwell and whatever else you need to change, or if you want to just extract the meat & potatoes, set your reqfuel to 13.1 and import my VE, spark and AFR target tables. The spark is from DIY's turbo base map and is safe. My VE table is not tuned much in the high rpm & low MAP cells (lower right area of the table) but it works great for both street driving and on track.

I run hi-res, which I did have to retune a little bit after upgrading from 029v, so it won't be perfect on 029xx but at least it's reasonably smooth and shouldn't be off-the-charts lean.

EDIT: I started typing all this out before reading that you may have screwed up your MS. But some of it still applies and it can't hurt to try a msq that will feed in a little more fuel than what you've been using.
Attached Files
File Type: msq VIRsession6.msq (35.3 KB, 76 views)

Last edited by ScottFW; 07-23-2009 at 12:08 AM.
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