MS Adapterboard Anyone??? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


MEGAsquirt A place to collectively sort out this megasquirt gizmo

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-14-2008, 05:08 PM   #21
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yertnamreg1218 View Post
So from reading this it would seem there is no actual regulator on the output voltage of the alternator. If this is the case, this is really super easy to do.
Uhm, can you imagine what a 70A linear regulator stuck to the side of the alternator would look like?

Every automotive alternator I've seen was "regulated" by a feedback mechanism- adjusting the field coil intensity to achieve the desired output- rather than what we'd consider a true series regulator- it's hugely more efficient, and sufficiently accurate for the degree of precision required. It's just that the controller for said mechanism is usually either internal to the alternator or, at most, a small external box. This business of having the PCM do it is relatively new, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why the PCM cares how warm it is outside, unless they're trying to eke an extra 0.01% out of the battery or something...


Quote:
I took a quick look at the NB A/C and it shouldn't be that bad, maybe ome comparators and a few transistors and I can get it working.
I don't think it'd be any harder than the NA A/C. If you've got a '99-'00 diagram in front of you, take the LG/B wire coming from the pressure switch after the "A/C Amplifier" that goes to 1P, gate it with an output that goes true when TPS = WOT, and use it to control either a DPST relay or a pair of open-collector NPNs that ground the "A/C Relay" (L/B wire at 1S) and the "Condenser Fan Relay" (L/W wire at 1I). I freely release that concept to the public domain for all uses commercial or non-commercial.


Quote:
On a side note, are there any other EE/CPE's around here??
Technically, I'm not a EE. 100% hands-on training. Started working at a radio station when I was 16 years old- you learn really fast when you're working on a device with filter caps the size of your leg, vacuum tubes that weigh 20 lbs and measure 10" in diameter, and front-panel meters scaled in kV and 100s of amps (though not on the same circuit, thankfully).
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2008, 08:35 PM   #22
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

I'd be more than happy to test out one of these boards for a 94/95 for ya.
elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2008, 01:44 AM   #23
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

Those caps and tubes sound exciting, thats something I've always been interested in but never gotten a chance to mess with. Although next year for my senior design project I think my department is going to let my team build a continuous wave audio modulated tesla coil. Should be a good time.

As for the regulator, I was sure it wouldn't be linear, but thought there might be some switching regulator of some sort. (I'm a computer engineer and I have been exposed to much power stuff)



As for every one who has volunteered to be guinea pigs, I'm doing the 90-93 first cause thats what I have and I will test it myself and maybe on one turbo car. Then I think I'll try to tackle the NB's cause DIY doesn't have a solution for ya'll and I think it would be mildly humorous to beat them to a semi-plug and play solution for the NB's. I will definitely need volunteers for this. The rest will be last. I'm in Terre Haute, Indiana. I would prefer volunteers to be semi close by.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves though, I'm really busy with school so this will be done in what little spare time I have.
yertnamreg1218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2008, 09:37 AM   #24
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,264
Total Cats: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
This business of having the PCM do it is relatively new, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why the PCM cares how warm it is outside, unless they're trying to eke an extra 0.01% out of the battery or something...
Hondas have the only ECU-controlled regulator I've been able to study in depth so far. They did this not for the battery but for fuel economy. Honda set up their ECU so it would drop the alternator output from 14.something volts to the 12's during cranking and under certain cruising conditions.
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2008, 10:05 AM   #25
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yertnamreg1218 View Post
I will definitely need volunteers for this. The rest will be last. I'm in Terre Haute, Indiana. I would prefer volunteers to be semi close by.
Like I said, I should have the ability to get the circuit boards printed on the cheap...

Something I'd suggest would be to put all the outputs to the 16 pin connector, like the fuel pump, o2, AIC outputs, spares, etc. This way if anyone build custom circuits like (knock or ebc) they just use a plug to simply plug them into the connector and not have wires all over the place...

a few things may want to be in two locations, like the 02 / WB signal....
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2008, 02:27 PM   #26
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
Hondas have the only ECU-controlled regulator I've been able to study in depth so far.
Toyota is doing it as well, at least on the Sienna. Discovered this fact while helping a friend install a trailer connection on one to power & recharge a camper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yertnamreg1218
Those caps and tubes sound exciting, thats something I've always been interested in but never gotten a chance to mess with.
Although nearly all AM transmitters are solid-state nowadays (and some of them are actually direct digital synthesized- no linear amps at all), high-power FM transmitters are surprisingly primitive. Up until the mid '90s, pretty much all of them were tube-based, mostly big ceramic ones like the 4CX and 5CX series. Even today, the biggest solid-state model that we build is a 10 kilowatt, and it uses about a hundred discrete power amps packed into 16 modular blocks. That particular model (the Z10-CD) runs the PA at about 48-52VDC, and uses multi-tap transformers rather than any kind of direct regulation.

The big FM transmitters, everything from 20 to 70 kilowatts, still use good old-fashioned pentodes and tetrodes in their final amps, though most of the IPAs (the drivers) have gone solid-state.

The first transmitter I ever worked on was a Harris FM20K. It used a 4CX15000A final tube, which ran at about 9.45 kV on the plate. The filament circuit drew about 160A at 6.1 - 6.2 volts, and that was not even the biggest tube in that family. The mega-VHF rigs use a 4CV100,000 tube- 17.5 kV @ 16A, with a 215A @ 15.5V filament.

And the UHF transmitters are even freakier. Most of 'em use either Klystrons or IOTs- yeah, the same stuff they build linear particle accelerators out of. Pure inductive devices with magnetically focused beamlines- we're talking 50 to 100 kV, and they're water-cooled!

[/hijack]
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2008, 11:09 PM   #27
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

"4CV100,000 tube- 17.5 kV @ 16A, with a 215A @ 15.5V filament."

That is amazing. I want power supplies that can do that.
yertnamreg1218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 12:05 AM   #28
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Here's a guy who offers something similar for motorcycles:

http://turbobikes.org/forum/index.php/topic,175.0.html

Maybe we all can take this one step further and include all the MS hardware onto the same board? So we dont have a mass of wires (and the corresponding number of failure modes) sticking out from the board? I dont know the legal issues involved in this though, but MS being open source they should have no problem?
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 12:07 AM   #29
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Or, alternatively, stack the adapter board on top of the v3.0 board using the DB37, and mount the whole thing in a bigger case.
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 01:11 AM   #30
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
Maybe we all can take this one step further and include all the MS hardware onto the same board? So we dont have a mass of wires (and the corresponding number of failure modes) sticking out from the board? I dont know the legal issues involved in this though, but MS being open source they should have no problem?
That is exactly what I was talking about in the "Rev 4.0" thread. Make one board that had both the MS itself, plus all the "mod" hardware that normally winds up being a mess of jumper wires.

As to "legal issues", that's the sticking point. The Extra code is open-source, but the 3.0 schematic and board layout are copyrighted B&G. I have not approached them (since quite honestly I don't have time to do this myself) but I wonder what their response might be?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 02:25 PM   #31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

I think taking their schematics and redo'ing it specifically for the miata would be legit because we would only use their schematics for reference. I'm pretty sure that isn't illegal.

This however is not what I will be doing. It seems you guys are complaining about the jumpers and resistors we have to add to the MS. Its like 4 wires, how hard can it be. What I aim to do with my board is effectively replace the wiring harness (which has like ~50000 wires to screw up on). Making a new MS is definitely doable, but I don't think I want to tackle it.

If anyone is interested though I do have a footprint for the yellow female ECU connector in an orcad library file (*.olb), and let me say you should be very thankful for it cause making the footprint was a bitch. PM me with an email address if you want it.

Also I'm honing in on a final design for the 90-93 board. I'm going to mill a prototype next week and test it on the car as soon as possible.

Finally I think I figured out why my MS isn't working. Originally I was trying to get it to run with the stock AFM until I got my intake drilled and tapped. The car ran once before I got the GM IAT in. Then I switched to the GM IAT (WITHOUT RUNNING THE FUEL PUMP WIRE). The car would fire up, but would always die (because it wasn't getting fuel). Well after looking through all these schematics it is now clear to me. I'm pretty sure my maps are close to correct (and its warm outside so no coldstart to deal with), so hopefully I will finally be megasquirted tonight!!! I can't wait!
yertnamreg1218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 02:28 PM   #32
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

at least comment on my "can get them printed on the cheap" comment..... :(
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 08:47 PM   #33
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

No, I don't have a board place. I've been looking around online, but they are all pretty expensive. The only capability I have is 2 sided small-medium sized boards not silk screen or solder masked. This is enough for testing out the design to make sure the layout is good and everything works. The only thing I pay is the cost of the blank copper board itself.

If you have a good board place for cheap, I am definitely interested. The final board will need to be 2 side silk screened and solder masked.

I'm going to keep it small (no proto area on actual adapter), but I'll bring all the signals out on a pin header. Then we can make a board will a female header bring out the signals and have a proto area on it. We can have that header common to all the adapters so that "mods" are interchangeable.

Finally, I turned on the fuel pump using the diagnostic connector and sure it enough it fired up and ran this time!!! I should be running on the MS using my boomslang by the end of the weekend!
yertnamreg1218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 10:20 PM   #34
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,833
Total Cats: 1,786
Default

tell me exactly how it needs to be printed and ill see (IE, dad is general manager at a plant that makes telecommunications circuit boards)
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 10:21 PM   #35
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yertnamreg1218 View Post
It seems you guys are complaining about the jumpers and resistors we have to add to the MS. Its like 4 wires, how hard can it be.
Uhm... when I get back home I'll find a picture of the backside of my MS. It's a forest of green wire.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2008, 11:59 PM   #36
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
 
cjernigan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 8,147
Total Cats: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Uhm... when I get back home I'll find a picture of the backside of my MS. It's a forest of green wire.
Mine is nuts too and i'm about to add EGT and shift light to it.....
cjernigan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2008, 12:24 AM   #37
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Uhm... when I get back home I'll find a picture of the backside of my MS. It's a forest of green wire.



4 jumper wires my ***...
elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2008, 01:10 AM   #38
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

I gotz mo wirez than yall:

The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2008, 01:14 AM   #39
Elite Member
iTrader: (11)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Overland Park, Kansas
Posts: 5,382
Total Cats: 43
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pipefather View Post
I gotz mo wirez than yall:
I'll defiantly admit yours is much much cooler than mine! I'm only using the stock case for my boomslang harness..

elesjuan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2008, 02:21 AM   #40
Junior Member
iTrader: (4)
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 113
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yertnamreg1218 View Post
I'm in Terre Haute, Indiana. I would prefer volunteers to be semi close by.
Rose Hulman or ISU?
sotaku is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MS2 with AbeFM PNP Adapter Board for NB $400 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 12 04-25-2010 11:35 AM
Install Notes for Abe's PnP NB/MS-II Adapterboard AbeFM MEGAsquirt 38 11-19-2009 04:22 PM
Cruise Bins and Economy Tuning yertnamreg1218 MEGAsquirt 18 04-06-2009 05:26 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:46 AM.