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Old 11-08-2009, 08:51 PM   #21
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Talk to Joe P about water injection, and getting it to be "safe". It'll be overengineered, but well thought out.

I would say to look at the MS-PNP from DIY, but I'm not sure they have an Ms-II compatible set up. If you do want to use my board, it's pretty flexible, I'd have to look at the wiring to see which pins you'd need to grad. There is quite a bit I like about it, but if someone has a genuine PnP go for it. You might also consider DIY's DIYPnP or whatever they call it. It's good if you want to have some understanding and do some mods. Someone's already using an idle upconverter board with my card, I don't have it really set up for independant injectors, but I can look at see how hard it would be to do. It'd be adding a couple of wires, then still be PnP.

Overall, I like your plan. Seems reasonable.
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:48 AM   #22
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I don't want a PNP. I already hacked my harness to directly wire a DB connector and don't feel like soldering the stock connectors back, I want to keep everything in one small box, and the PNP is a waste of money. I'm a CpE, so I know what I'm doing for the most part. It's more a matter of how much I want to research. Plus I built my MS-I myself, so adding a couple more injector circuits to what I've already done is nothing. I mostly just need to understand how the MS-II works. You have an MSQ I can take a look at? I've been looking at the table switching in TunerStudioMS and it looks like you can use a physical switch to change tables. I haven't figured out where to put the input, though. My safety will be that if the pin goes low, it will default to a safe fuel and spark map and if it goes high it will use the advanced map with WI. That way if anything happens to the circuit, it'll default to a safe state. I also want to gate the input with the WI pump and reservoir float. I may put a switch for EBC to run on wastegate, too. Depends on how much 250+hp scares me at first.

I also think I'm going to take your advice on the low ohm injectors. Those evo injectors are pretty cheap and I have to make a new harness for them anyway to do the sequential. I'm going to get the peak and hold circuit to run them. Putting resistors inline is just a waste.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:40 AM   #23
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never mind
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:46 AM   #24
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:22 AM   #25
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ah, though you already knew that, hence my 'never mind' ... had a link to my website there with the same info. Sorry 'bout that. Here it is again (down on that page). I initially used D15 for WI, but changed that to tacho out later.
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:30 PM   #26
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Sounds like you are good, but if you want to see an msq, check the last post here:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t38677/ Remember it's for a 99
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Old 11-09-2009, 04:49 PM   #27
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Nice writeup. Does your baro correction work properly? Abe was saying his went crazy when he drove through the mountains. Can you post your MSQ? I'd like to see how you have some of your stuff setup.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:04 PM   #28
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I was looking at that MSQ, Abe. It looks extremely basic. You have yours posted anywhere?

Oh, and I just looked at the baro correction, I guess the table can be altered, so I think I'll install it and the next time I'm in the mountains, I'll enable and tune it. My car hated me when I ran the Tail of the Dragon. I have the I/O, so why not.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:55 PM   #29
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never tried baro correction or ebc
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:37 PM   #30
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To first order, a MAP based system should compensate for barometeric changes, where a MAF will not. I think. :-)

I don't think I have my MSQ posted anywhere, but it's not terribly different. Basically, I try various features and when they don't work how I want, I turn them back off. The most important thing to me is that it always idles, always runs, maintains good AFR's, etc. All those things happen with the basic set up.

When I turn on CL idle, it idles badly. Maybe it's my fault, whatever, I don't know anyone personally who has it working, even people getting support. I'm not bagging on the MS, just saying that's what's been my experience. Baro made the car not run. I turned it off. CLT based rev limiter didn't work for clt temps over 200 (or 210, I forget). Etc etc. What seems to work is setting up the basics, my open loop idle car never EVER stalls. My baro-less car maintains great AFR's in the mountains and always starts.

I'm not saying don't try it. You can take the baro map, look up the included map, and subtract it out, like I said. It's a trivial but painstaking process.

I tried EBC before the latest rewrite of the PID code, and my boost was all over the place. I hear the new one is much better, but I decided not to try it till I got the idle working - and I've nearly given up on idle.

I don't know about "complex" but my car runs really well and evos and vettes don't give me any trouble, even with stock internals. How more complex do I need to be? You certainly don't need sequential or water injection for 250 whp. Just get it running, nice and simple, and go visit a dyno. :-)
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
When I turn on CL idle, it idles badly. Maybe it's my fault, whatever, I don't know anyone personally who has it working, even people getting support. I'm not bagging on the MS, just saying that's what's been my experience. Baro made the car not run. I turned it off. CLT based rev limiter didn't work for clt temps over 200 (or 210, I forget). Etc etc. What seems to work is setting up the basics, my open loop idle car never EVER stalls. My baro-less car maintains great AFR's in the mountains and always starts.
Abe, when you asked for help, you did not follow the advice given. There is only one person on this forum currently trying to use that code, and he has not yet called me so I can help him. I have not "supported" him at all yet. I do not typically give out my phone number for people to call for help, but in this case since only DIY is successfully using the idle speed control code on a Miata, I made an exception. Everyone I have helped on msextra has been able to get it to work, and that makes far more people on far more setups than those who have not gotten it to work. Your experience with it is not the common experience.

As for the other settings, you never a) reported any issues with them on msextra or b) asked for help with any of them. There are plenty of people using those features as well without issues, and most of the time if you ask for advice, and then take it, those features will work as-desired.

Quote:
I tried EBC before the latest rewrite of the PID code, and my boost was all over the place. I hear the new one is much better, but I decided not to try it till I got the idle working - and I've nearly given up on idle.
Again, plenty of people have gotten Boost control and Idle speed control working. If you follow the advice given when you ask for help (if you even ask) you are much more likely to be successful. If you argue with that advice and complain that the code should work differently from how it was designed, then most likely you won't be able to get it to work.

I still have improvements to make for the EBC code (making it a type-B loop mainly, to deal better with sudden changes in target boost due to throttle movement), but even now it is working great for a lot of people.

Ken
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:39 AM   #32
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Ken, don't worry, I'll be asking for your help, I'm sure. I'll probably need help timing the injectors since I don't think anyone has really done sequential for the 1.6L miata, and with the closed loop idle/EBC.

Abe, there are a lot of things I don't "need." I just want to get the most out of my setup. I want the TD04 to be the only thing really limiting me. I like complexity. It gives me something to tinker with. If everything works out of the box, then I don't get to learn anything. I've done all the basic stuff with my current MS-I. It works and works well.
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:24 PM   #33
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No worries...

I recently started writing the "official" ms3 manual, but since many of the ms3 features came from ms2/extra (such as EBC and closed-loop idle speed control), the settings I list and the tips I give apply to both. I started writing the manual with CL idle since it's not well documented yet.

I will see about getting the pdf and html versions posted somewhere that people can start looking at them.

Ken
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Old 11-10-2009, 06:47 PM   #34
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2 Idle Control

That's the beginnings of our manual, and I started with idle speed control as the first thing I documented.

Take a look.

Ken
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:32 AM   #35
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awesome, thanks Ken
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:57 PM   #36
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It's the ms3 manual, so there are some differences (frequencies available for example), but the tuning tips and what each setting does are the same.

Ken
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:33 PM   #37
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OK, so I've got my MS-II pretty much done. I just have a couple questions.

These are my notes for the connections:
DONE (needs output wire) - Spark A - PM3 (INJ_LED) top of R26
DONE (needs output wire) - Spark B - PM4 (ACCEL_LED) top of R29

INJ1 - PT1
INJ2 - PT3
INJ3 - PT2 (PWM1/IAC1)
INJ4 - PT4 (PWM2/IAC2)

DONE (Input on IAC1A/pin 25) - CMP - JS8 1 tooth
DONE (needs PCB connections) - PWM idle - PM2 (Fidle)
DONE (output on IAC2A/pin 29) - fans - PT6 (JS0)
DONE (input on SPR1/pin 3) - knock - PA0 (JS5)
DONE - baro - (JS4)
DONE (input on SPR3/pin 5) - launch - PE0 (JS7)
DONE (needs output wire) - boost - PT7 (JS2)
DONE (input on SPR2/pin 4) - table switch - PE1 (IRQ_LOW)

DONE (output on SPR4/pin 6) - MAP for DO WI controller

DONE - spark inversion

One question is, I would like to make some LED indicators for launch and table switching. I'm guessing that the float opens the circuit when the tank is empty, so basically I just need to attach an LED between 5V (off MS) and the switches, right? Should I just use a 330ohm resistor on the + side? That looks like how the MS does it for its LEDs.

I'm putting my injectors and spark output on a separate DB-9 connector to reduce noise. I figure that'll make the inputs a lot cleaner. Only outputs on the DB-37 will be IAC, PWM and MAP for my DO WI.

My second question is, is there any way I can work EGT into the mix? It looks like MS2/Extra doesn't support it? I don't have a sensor, but I thought about adding one. I may just attach a gauge to it if I can't connect it to MS.

And third, has anyone used the upconverter board for a 1.6L IAC valve? What multiplier and settings did you use? I installed headers on my board so I can change the multiplier, but I'm not really sure the best way to approach fiddling with it. Looks like DIY used ~160hz. Any ideas Ken? Should I use 85hz and a multiplier of 2? I'm assuming the freq should stay around the 160hz.

I think that's it for now, but I'm sure I'll have more questions when I actually get it installed and need to work out settings.

I did end up getting some Evo8 injectors and found some plugs for like $25, so I'm just going to wire them directly to the P&H driver board.
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:28 AM   #38
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Yeah, so...no one wants to take a stab at it I guess...
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Old 12-02-2009, 12:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickerZ View Post
One question is, I would like to make some LED indicators for launch and table switching. I'm guessing that the float opens the circuit when the tank is empty, so basically I just need to attach an LED between 5V (off MS) and the switches, right? Should I just use a 330ohm resistor on the + side? That looks like how the MS does it for its LEDs.
Sounds like a plan.

Quote:
My second question is, is there any way I can work EGT into the mix? It looks like MS2/Extra doesn't support it? I don't have a sensor, but I thought about adding one. I may just attach a gauge to it if I can't connect it to MS.
It doesn't use EGT feedback for anything at the moment, and it's not very documented, but it can be done if you give up knock control or baro correction because you need to use either JS4 or JS5. (In the future, you'll be able to bring it in over the CANBus as well - just no hardware for that at the moment. The code supports it though.) You'd kind of have to piece documentation together from the MS1/Extra EGT input directions:

MSnS-Extra Hardware Manual

And the MS2/Extra extra gauge directions:

MS2-Extra Quick Guide to Tuning / MegaTune

Or you could wait for either the JBPerf I/O extender or the GPIO board. Those will let you log four separate EGT inputs.
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