MS PNP requires reading and following directions??? - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


MEGAsquirt A place to collectively sort out this megasquirt gizmo

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-21-2015, 03:41 AM   #41
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

you keep adding fuel in teh cells it's leaning in, and keep smoothing it over and using the interpolate button such that not only does the range look smooth, but all surrounding cells are smooth

with the ve map it's not enough to just update the precise cells, but you must also keep the surrounding cells even. they work as a team, not independantly. also keep in mind the timing map affects this too. if you're on MS3 you can use the separate Idle ve maps and they make idle a lot easier to dial in.

but basically you start with car warmed up and no accessories on. get that down, then turn on fan. then lights, etc etc. keep watching where ti goes as you increase load. work on those ranges and surrounding cells

hope that helps (don't have time to check your attachments)
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 11:14 AM   #42
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
you keep adding fuel in teh cells it's leaning in, and keep smoothing it over and using the interpolate button such that not only does the range look smooth, but all surrounding cells are smooth

with the ve map it's not enough to just update the precise cells, but you must also keep the surrounding cells even. they work as a team, not independantly. also keep in mind the timing map affects this too. if you're on MS3 you can use the separate Idle ve maps and they make idle a lot easier to dial in.

but basically you start with car warmed up and no accessories on. get that down, then turn on fan. then lights, etc etc. keep watching where ti goes as you increase load. work on those ranges and surrounding cells

hope that helps (don't have time to check your attachments)


Using those tips I got a good 14.6 no ACC idle and a 15.7 full ACC idle. The engine's exact operating range does change a bit while turning stuff on, it was pretty easy to watch the ball move in VEAL (obviously veal wasn't tuning since it was idle) and just change the cells myself on VE Table 1.

I'll try smoothing it over using interpolate to get rid of those nasty flat spots. Haven't done that yet. It's taking a long time changing values in cells independently, lol.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 11:24 AM   #43
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,847
Total Cats: 1,788
Default

here's a little tune:




i suggest you come up with one on your own...
Attached Thumbnails
MS PNP requires reading and following directions???-80-thumpthebitches_30fba5f4cde626b404c14f4436c71ca7f98f1c39.png  
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 11:40 AM   #44
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 06:02 PM   #45
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post

So, i've got it reduced. 1st gear is really jumpy, I suspect because of the TPSDOT, though I've no clue how to clean that up without causing hesitation...

Here's what I've got mapped out so far. My car never exceeds 160kPa, so I guess tuning those cells above there is useless until I up the boost. I just want to understand the flat spots, and throttle hesitation. I read the tuning AE article from DIY autotune and played around with the the lag settings, specifically TPS lag now @ 50 and MAP lag set at 20... As far as eliminating the hesitation.... I've got nothing, only reduction. Suggestions?

Attached Thumbnails
MS PNP requires reading and following directions???-stutter1.jpg   MS PNP requires reading and following directions???-stutter2.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: msq CurrentTune.msq (110.1 KB, 61 views)
File Type: csv 2015-09-21_08.02.42.csv (1.53 MB, 30 views)
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 06:36 PM   #46
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

Why are you messing with WOT curve? Do you know what that does? That's not how you add accel enrichment.

You should not need to change lag factors either, not unless your TPS signal is ****. Doing so will dampen any accel enrichment you try and add back in.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 08:57 PM   #47
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
Why are you messing with WOT curve? Do you know what that does? That's not how you add accel enrichment.

You should not need to change lag factors either, not unless your TPS signal is ****. Doing so will dampen any accel enrichment you try and add back in.
Jesus, the signal on my TPS 4185 is so poor. Increments are garbage as in the voltage between 0% and 100% is very minuscule.

I moved the WOT curve because it was doing TPS AE at idle, and lobing my idle very badly. Moving it away from where my idle blip sits in the WOT curve seemed to stop that.

I read in other threads that that's how people smoothed over their flat spots. I was just trying some stuff out to see if it would work. So far no dice. So what should I do next?
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 09:56 PM   #48
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

Fix your TPS then, or expect crappy tps based enrichment.

TPSwot curve isn't how you keep AE from kickng at idle, either. That's under the AE settings, min TPSdot. TPSwot curve is to keep from flooding it if you chop the throttle open in steps, as you ususally need less and less AE. There's RPM based scaling, so it's really redundant anyway.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2015, 10:05 PM   #49
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
Fix your TPS then, or expect crappy tps based enrichment.

TPSwot curve isn't how you keep AE from kickng at idle, either. That's under the AE settings, min TPSdot. TPSwot curve is to keep from flooding it if you chop the throttle open in steps, as you ususally need less and less AE. There's RPM based scaling, so it's really redundant anyway.
Gotcha, I'll check the settings and devise something. We will see what happens.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 12:07 AM   #50
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
Fix your TPS then, or expect crappy tps based enrichment.

TPSwot curve isn't how you keep AE from kickng at idle, either. That's under the AE settings, min TPSdot. TPSwot curve is to keep from flooding it if you chop the throttle open in steps, as you ususally need less and less AE. There's RPM based scaling, so it's really redundant anyway.

I discovered noise in my TPS, probably just inherent as I reused the wiring given to me by Mazda and simply switched the two wires IAW the write up for using TPS 4185. I don't think a wiring re-route is needed like the write up on DIY suggests; there's no way mazda would allow any detectable amount of noise into such an important line. I reset the sensitivity for activating AE, and boom. Problem solved.

I appreciate the help.

Still on those damn flat spots though. I'm out on a run to see what I can come up with.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 12:57 AM   #51
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

Factory TPS isn't TPS, but a idle/WOT switch. It does not use a signal ground IIRC, but it would still tolerate all the noise in the world.

Assuming it's a 91 like you say.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 01:02 AM   #52
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
Factory TPS isn't TPS, but a idle/WOT switch. It does not use a signal ground IIRC, but it would still tolerate all the noise in the world.

Assuming it's a 91 like you say.

Alright I just dont get this AE thing. Now when I jab the throttle, it just dies. All the threads I can find show me different graphs, which don't have the values that mine do, but have the X and Y axis' as PW adder and some other weird ****. Doesn't look anything like my tuner studio.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 01:30 AM   #53
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by satisfied View Post
Alright I just dont get this AE thing. Now when I jab the throttle, it just dies. All the threads I can find show me different graphs, which don't have the values that mine do, but have the X and Y axis' as PW adder and some other weird ****. Doesn't look anything like my tuner studio.

Wellp. I can't get it to rev in neutral. I can't stab the throttle to downshift from 3-2nd gear. But the flat spots are gone and it pulls like a raped ape. WHAT THE ****.'

satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 03:12 AM   #54
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (10)
 
Reverant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,440
Total Cats: 198
Default

When you calibrated the TPS, what were the open/closed values you used?
Reverant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 08:28 PM   #55
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
When you calibrated the TPS, what were the open/closed values you used?
Lift off throttle, "get current for 0%". Raise that by 2 to make sure vibrations don't trigger throttle activity.

Step on throttle "get current for 100%" lower by 2 to make sure I always trigger WOT.

88-488
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 09:07 PM   #56
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

what the crap is the lower/raise by 2? I never heard of that...ever
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 09:24 PM   #57
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
what the crap is the lower/raise by 2? I never heard of that...ever
As I said my signal is noisy. So the "0" value will jump between 84-87. If I set it to 88 it will never trigger TPS movement at idle.

If I try to get current while floored I get the same effect. That's why I did that.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 09:27 PM   #58
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,175
Total Cats: 2,578
Default

I understand what you're doing but that just seems like a band-aid over a voltage instability problem
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 10:18 PM   #59
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 98
Total Cats: -33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I understand what you're doing but that just seems like a band-aid over a voltage instability problem

I agree, but any variable electronic sensor, device, regulator is BOUND to have a little give to it. Maybe the TPS 4185 a little more than say the DENSO automatic 90-93, BUT I find it acceptable. The tolerance in the grand scheme of things is less than 1% which is all I can ask for in all electronics!

I'm going to revert to yesterday's "smoothed" out tune, save this one in a different directory, and try to hit the AE issue again with a fresh mind and new ideas about pulse width, time, and how much is really needed running 420cc's and only 6psi. I know I'm adding WAY too much fuel. As far as tripping AE during normal driving... If my VE tables are good, which they WERE, then my AE shouldn't have to add so much fuel that it wouldn't even matter if I tip in and hit AE while shifting 1-2,2-3,3-4,4-5 momentarily.

I think I'm getting carried away in my "I ONLY WANT AE under these EXACT circumstances" and I need to deal with hitting the low side of AE during normal circumstances. I feel getting it to the point where the car "knows" when I want to "go fast" is unrealistic, considering I think of an idle that's 14.6 unloaded and 15.6 fully loaded to be "perfect."

What I believe I had done was become obsessed with making it perfect, when AE isn't the perfecting aspect, that should be VE. AE needs to assist VE when I tip throttle in, and based upon how much throttle I tip. It's not a complete and total takeover of the VE table. IT'S AN ASSIST.

Also, the flat spots were because of the inherent "step like" nature of VE tables. So AE will assist in this by "smoothing" over these areas with small additional bursts of fuel when needed.

I just wish I understood it better. I read the AE article probably 10 times now, and I still don't get WHY the minimum RPM is set at 1500 and why we should stop at 5000RPM. The article says "because less is changing in high RPM" I don't get that at all. As far as I can tell the same things that change at 5000 RPM change the same way at 2,3,4 thousand RPM... I don't get the 1500 minimum either, which some people set to 1500, and some set to 1800 and others still set it for 2000. If I could really visualize the changes like TPSDOT WOTCURVE and m/s% over time then I could get somewhere but it's all conceptual and mathematical and I don't think anyone besides Rev or Brain actually seriously understand it. I think we're all just guess and checking based off of logs, and small improvements over time.

I never was good at algebra or calc, and that might have a lot to do with it.

Am I right here? On the right track?

Last edited by satisfied; 09-22-2015 at 10:37 PM.
satisfied is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 10:53 PM   #60
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

You basically just described tuning. Logging, comparing, and changing while looking for better results. Are you surprised?

AE characteristics will change with the injectors and setup you choose to run. Not even Brian or Reverent could nail it right out of the gate, that's why there are so many input parameters to get what you want from it. I will tell you much more than AE is fucked up if you can't turn it off entirely and still rev with no load. I ran with jack **** for AE for the longest time, the stock miata doesn't have much in the way of AE, so it's obviously alright without it.


I don't know how you don't understand the settings, they explain what they are. The WOT curve will not apply any more AE if you are over a certain RPM and TPS position. It says this verbatim in the menu, those are the x and y axies. How can you not get that?

Quit overthinking things.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
15x10 - 15x11 6UL @ 949 Racing emilio700 Wheels and Tires 151 06-02-2017 03:36 PM
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:41 AM.