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Old 08-12-2015, 05:48 PM   #1
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Default New engine and new MS3. So much fuels

New engine and new megasquirt at the same time probably wasn't a great idea. That aside it was really lean, now it is really rich. Autotune is pulling tons of fuel and at first it was super lean. Should I just let autotune do its thing and drive it? Or as it corrects cells stop periodically and try to make the rest of the VE table not such a just? IE: it tunes a cell to 120 from 150, shall I make the rest of the cells it didn't touch scaled to suit?

Side note. It makes a sound that sounds like a 21mm nut rolling down the fender when I let off throttle. Sorta similar to rod knock. During initial startup the required fuel was 11.6 and didn't know to change it. So it ran REALLY rich it's first few minutes of life. I changed the oil to get that out, and have since run it. Might change the oil again. Curious if it running so rich before the rings seat might make it knock.


VVT motor, 99 chassis, Skunk2 throttle, square top, I/H/E 2.5in, forged rods and oil pump.






A short trip through the neighborhood. I had to crank the idle range to this area to get it to stablize a bit. Is it normal for the VE to be higher than it's next cell?





Base map scaled up to get car started and trying to get it to idle.





Original base map before I scaled it to 80ish in the idle range





First oil change reeked of fuel and was very runny even after it sat over an hour. This much has to be bad. Concerned driving it around this rich will cause harm.
Attached Thumbnails
New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-knockknock_251d2ebcb76b73f8525937b8d8371d07faba69be.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-8eleven_776fa8774abe71028801eec205865421c164774e.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-base_map_1c798111364cc2c420c7f7a9211a4140576ccec8.jpg   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-mb7bev_zvlpu43xuzlnwynuxsuf7vaaagcpyyokvaue_w1680_h945_no_jpeg_f064499e6ce6387d574d20120c1e56.jpg  
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Old 08-12-2015, 06:13 PM   #2
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When I see VE analyzer doing really really crazy steps like that I look for problems with the setup (hardware) or the settings (software)

If you're washing as bad as it looks, then yes stop driving the car an figure out the issue

*edit: also when the steps between two cells right next to each other are over 5%, that's not good at all.
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Old 08-12-2015, 07:58 PM   #3
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I'm basically ballparking a base map it seems with trial runs it seems. I must have scaled the map way to rich. I'll try and scale the whole map to close the VE analyzer numbers got to. Hardware wise I can't think of anything wrong. No leaks as far as I can tell. Nothing seems to be stuck open or closed. I'll change the oil again just to be safe in the morning. I'd rather blow through a few $20 oil changes than a motor. Anytime the VE analyze dials things much more than 5%ish I'll shut it down and rescale. It feels wrong to blindly ballpark like this.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:03 PM   #4
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Um, why not use AFR target and get the req fuel proper so you can have some proper-ish VEs?

I don't understand why people fuel like this.
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Old 08-14-2015, 12:34 PM   #5
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The only hardware faults I found may not have been a problem. They aren't now. The intake manifold to block had a 70Mv drop and is no a factor of 2 less. Painted intake manifold may have done it. Added a ground from mani to block and then block to chassis. Checked everything else I could think of.

Idle is all over. I keep adding fuel to get it to idle toward 14.7, but then the rest of the map reads super rich going down the block (the oil doesn't really reek anymore).

Here is my problem I think. You tell me. I have ID1000's and the dead time may be off.



Dead time at 13.2V is 0.90 and after some digging I think that is wrong.





The NB is set to 60psi I believe from the factory, so assuming all is okay there then I should have to interpolate the values to 13.2V





After learning some Excel this is what I got. 1224. I'll be headed to the garage shortly. I emailed Reverant, but haven't heard back yet and might be a bit with the time change. The ID1000's are the one thing I forgot to mention when he resent me a N/A map.
Attached Thumbnails
New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-deadtime1_d68eeed3d0bb7b613ee2421cef9b13efb7921df3.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-dead_time3_83c2f7d8c67d7f1a533ba250c6a06fb1f05e99dc.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-dead_time2_8f948f96eed804d4a4133a61fa4158658880731b.png  
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:21 PM   #6
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IDs usually idle in the 60-70 VE% zone.

what's the req. fuel value you are using?

but yes, I'd be using 1.2ms for your dead value, not 0.9ms.
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:23 PM   #7
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you set up injector voltage compensation too right? not just dead time and req fuel
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:27 PM   #8
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This is what is is set to. Thank you for the assistance.

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Old 08-14-2015, 01:32 PM   #9
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So i'll change this to A(ms) -> 1.2? or the spot in Required fuel to 1.2 or both? Sorry for my ignorance. Also no I didn't change Voltage Compensation. Not sure where to find it, uner the MSX parameters?
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:37 PM   #10
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the A(ms)

the Curve 1 show in teh graph just to the right is your voltage compensation table.

click the "..." and plug in the values from the table you created after you convert the numbers to % change.

example:

13.2v = 100%
so
14v = 88%
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Old 08-14-2015, 01:43 PM   #11
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you're still not showing the injector voltage compensation. I'd post screen shot but I'm at work

*edit: yep what Brain just posted
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:08 PM   #12
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Is this your noise?

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Old 08-14-2015, 02:24 PM   #13
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Probably dumb to ask, but can/should I change these. ID's chart only goes from 8volts to 16volts. Probably shouldn't mess with the 7.2v to 19.2v range. Since those volts are outside what I'm trying to interpolate I'd hate to just make up numbers for them.

What I have so far. Learning Excel, so patience.
7.2 ->
9.6 ->175.0817
12 ->117.6471
14.4 ->84.3954
16.8 ->
19.2 ->

Best guess scale those unknown voltages or re-enter those rabge of voltages I have numbers for. My though it the 7.2 - 19.2 it so that the range covers all the possible range the car will have, so messing with the volt range could get into a spot it has no info for.

What it was set to


Also just in case someone wants to know how I'm getting these numbers here is the how to interpolate instructions for Excel

Attached Thumbnails
New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-deadtimepercent_db6d1f9ddf996da6f0b2af3becbb185958c9f36d.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-interpolation_excel_73a4f1d2181275b06f87d1680a9830dc85552cfa.png  
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Is this your noise?


Pretty close. I know Youtube audio suck, but I'd say mine may be a little louder in person and more angry sounding. If yours is a pop and shudder mine is more pop and clanky. I think it is residual fuel poppong in the header. At first I though it may be knock, but with my dad over and listening it seems more in the pipe. I'll try to get a video once I get this injector thing figured.
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:28 PM   #15
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Mine sounded like it was something rolling down the inside of my intake.

Might still be doing it for all i know. I can't hear it inside the car.
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:37 PM   #16
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if it's linear than it won't really matter what ranges you use, so just input everything in per ID's chart
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:36 PM   #17
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It's not super linear, that's been some of my concern. Glad I can change the volt numbers cause making up the numbers from excel stuff sucks.

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Old 08-14-2015, 03:45 PM   #18
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you make too hard:




use the D column to plot your graph.


looks like you came up with same end result, just a very interesting approach.
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Old 08-14-2015, 03:57 PM   #19
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Alrighty then. Call ID and was emailed the data sheet. Should have done it hours ago. Changed my stuff per the 4 bar figures given. Now what is the EPW stuff?




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New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-id1000datasheet_a36174abe4c6c85caf411689a5ab08838496999c.png   New engine and new MS3.  So much fuels-80-newid1000chnage_percent_d2a4d3567b0f0ae899f1b20fd80b25cd58131576.png  
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Old 08-14-2015, 04:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you make too hard
This is very true. I do really appreciate the help. I swear I've learned more about the MS in the last 24hrs than in the last months of reading. Hard to grasp it until you play with it.
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