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Old 08-11-2008, 12:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by coastertrav View Post
Also if you are looking for a spot on tune contact Tony at T1 in Dallas, he is the man.

He tuned a buddy of mines Civic for under $600 and that included installing Hondata, and the car seriously behaves like stock.

Not only that, but you will go home with a baggy that has a lifetime supply of sparkplugs as he pulls them after every run to check for detonation and swaps in a new set.
I already tried and Tony didn't want my money. He'd rather talk **** about MS "not doing what i want it to do, so won't use it." he wasn't rude or anything, but didn't want $500 to work the dyno and let me tune it. His loss, I was going to bring cash too.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:06 AM   #42
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So what is the deal with all of the spark plug consumption? Why not just use detonation cans? It is pretty easy to hear pinging.
I don't plan on changing plugs, but I have extra if I need them. Extreme Performance and Import Car Center both told me they'd charge me 1-hour of labor, at $120 to change plugs or to fix anything on the car, in addition to the dyno time.

The problem with dyno tuning, is that the shop has you by the *****. They can keep the car on the dyno all day if they want to, while they check out child **** on the computer.

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Old 08-11-2008, 12:17 AM   #43
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I already tried and Tony didn't want my money. He'd rather talk **** about MS "not doing what i want it to do, so won't use it." he wasn't rude or anything, but didn't want $500 to work the dyno and let me tune it. His loss, I was going to bring cash too.

Yeah, he is really big on Hondata and Motec, those are his ECUs of choice.

Meh, I can see your point, but at the same time if I was in his shoes I would rather tune somebody else's car than run the dyno while you tune your own for less money. He isn't exactly hurting for customers you know.

Anyway, good luck. I'm not familiar with any other tuners in your area.
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:30 AM   #44
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Yeah, he is really big on Hondata and Motec, those are his ECUs of choice.

Meh, I can see your point, but at the same time if I was in his shoes I would rather tune somebody else's car than run the dyno while you tune your own for less money. He isn't exactly hurting for customers you know.

Anyway, good luck. I'm not familiar with any other tuners in your area.
He would have made the same amount of money. I'll proudly give my money to one of his competitors. He gave me the MoTec pitch and I told him the typical, "I'm not paying $2500 for an ecm, $1200 to wire it up, $500 for a trigger wheel, then another $2k for tuning on a $1600 car." Now that I think about it, every efi101 person I've spoken to is a moron who either wanted $1500+ to tune, was a rude *******, or told me that MS was going to blow up my car.
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:12 PM   #45
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any thoughts on tuning spark with EGT? If you have target AFR's tuned with a wideband, why not adjust spark within the acceptable heat range (whatever that may be)?
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:27 PM   #46
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any thoughts on tuning spark with EGT? If you have target AFR's tuned with a wideband, why not adjust spark within the acceptable heat range (whatever that may be)?
What's acceptable? What makes the most power?
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:38 PM   #47
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Required fuel is 6.5, 550 Injectors, Hi res. Idles perfectly in mid 16's.
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Old 08-11-2008, 02:49 PM   #48
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What's acceptable? What makes the most power?
I've also hear that once the AFR is at target, to advance spark timing, while temps lower, until the stop lowering. They say this indicates that spark is at LPP and time should be dropped back to just inside the temp flat-line.

does this make sense? I could log EGT with MS, and it might be really easy. Then I could get it on a dyno and make a couple pulls to be sure everything is safe.
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:08 PM   #49
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i would use EGT only as a gut check since both AFR and spark affect EGT.

but remember, AFR affects spark tuning a lot less than spark tuning affects AFR. an AFR that's plus or minus 1 (11:1-13:1) is not going to change power output as much as spark being off 3 degrees.

also keep in mind that high EGT is a product of fire on the wrong side of the valves. either because a lean mixture burns slower (and is still burning as the exh valves open) or because you ignited it so late (retard) that it's burning as the exhaust opens. similarly, not advancing spark as RPMs rise will lead to the same result--the burn cycle stays the same while the time between spark and valve events is shorter.

just do a quick fuel autotune and then start monkeying with spark.
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:16 PM   #50
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i would use EGT only as a gut check since both AFR and spark affect EGT.

but remember, AFR affects spark tuning a lot less than spark tuning affects AFR. an AFR that's plus or minus 1 (11:1-13:1) is not going to change power output as much as spark being off 3 degrees.

also keep in mind that high EGT is a product of fire on the wrong side of the valves. either because a lean mixture burns slower (and is still burning as the exh valves open) or because you ignited it so late (retard) that it's burning as the exhaust opens. similarly, not advancing spark as RPMs rise will lead to the same result--the burn cycle stays the same while the time between spark and valve events is shorter.

just do a quick fuel autotune and then start monkeying with spark.
So as long as I keep fuel to its target value, then tuning spark with EGT will work...right? Wouldn't Spark have to be grossly retarded to change AFR by the time it gets to the 02 sensor (unburnt)? I think that much retardation (lol) would burn up a turbine pretty quick.

Unfortunately autotune never worked for me. I've tied brain's script mods but with no success.
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:41 PM   #51
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i guess I meant to say that AFR and spark both affect power.

spark wont affect AFR much at all which is why you can tune it quite a bit before re-doing your fuel map. as the engine starts to make more power at the same RPM/MAP values though, you'll have to add in more fuel. a powerful engine is a thirsty engine.

and fix the autotune. or at least learn to use MLV to do it.
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
i guess I meant to say that AFR and spark both affect power.

spark wont affect AFR much at all which is why you can tune it quite a bit before re-doing your fuel map. as the engine starts to make more power at the same RPM/MAP values though, you'll have to add in more fuel. a powerful engine is a thirsty engine.

and fix the autotune. or at least learn to use MLV to do it.
I don't understand how AFR can change when held as an independent variable. there is a certain amount of air and fuel squirted in the chamber. As long as its ignited, how is the mixture going to change with spark angle?
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:45 PM   #53
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inject the same fuel and air into the chamber and dont ignite it... does afr change?
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:21 PM   #54
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inject the same fuel and air into the chamber and dont ignite it... does afr change?
Ok, so now I'm actually learning this ****. So essentially the air/fuel mixture is a value of residual fuel (in this case, fatter than 14.7) where the fuel is still in the mixture going through the exhaust pipes, and essentially taking longer to burn up, at a lower intensity and duration...which makes sense when you think about concepts like LPP, cylinder pressure, and how people make more torque with fat mixtures, and more HP with lean mixtures.

Whoa, its like a chemistry classroom in here now.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:54 PM   #55
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reality is more that you need excess fuel for complete combustion of the oxygen available because of the non-ideal nature of a motor. fuel sticks to parts, doesn't vaporize well, etc. dump in more than you need and hope for the best. that need has declined as engines are better designed but it's still there.

i dont know about fat/tq and lean/hp but the difference there is probably more engine speed and airflow related. i wonder if that's more a result than a cause.
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:21 PM   #56
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Sorry hustler but I have to ask; no one has replied about what would be an acceptable value for EGTs.

I changed my maps the other day and ever since I find my EGTs are a little higher than before. Can someone give me a reasonable range in EGT temps?

Thanks
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:48 PM   #57
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i'm pretty sure you want them 1500-1600
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:53 PM   #58
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i'm pretty sure you want them 1500-1600
That was precisely why I asked. I don't see temps on my EGT gauge going over 1,000* and that's with the sensor located less than 1 foot from my turbo (really close to the manifold). Before changing my maps I used to see 800* temps on the gauge but I can recall hearing my local tuner saying that 1,000* temps were a bit high.
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:07 PM   #59
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That was precisely why I asked. I don't see temps on my EGT gauge going over 1,000* and that's with the sensor located less than 1 foot from my turbo (really close to the manifold). Before changing my maps I used to see 800* temps on the gauge but I can recall hearing my local tuner saying that 1,000* temps were a bit high.
well, the compressed gas pre-turbo is going to be hotter than the gas post turbo.
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:10 PM   #60
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Sorry hustler but I have to ask; no one has replied about what would be an acceptable value for EGTs.

I changed my maps the other day and ever since I find my EGTs are a little higher than before. Can someone give me a reasonable range in EGT temps?

Thanks
that depends on which turbine, housing, manifold, rpm, kpa, and whatever else I had for breakfast...according to today's research.
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