Seq COP install, now false AE and awful AFR's - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


MEGAsquirt A place to collectively sort out this megasquirt gizmo

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-23-2013, 12:59 AM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default Seq COP install, now false AE and awful AFR's

Hello gents, trying to solve a couple of problems that I think might be related. I have recently done a few changes to my DIYPNP. The last was to add four BIP373's and and CBR coils for sequential COP. Car starts and runs but has TPS signal going from 0 to -3% on the gauge and AE % from 0 to 13% with absolutely no throttle input. Now I have been searching the forum for symptoms like this and it seems common to have noise being the culprit. However, my fuel is all over the place where it was fine before this change. At idle its a little leaner than the 14.0 I had tuned it for and above idle it goes way lean to 16+ at times. All the while with AE kicking in and out and as it does the AFR's come way down and then spike up. All of this is sitting in my driveway of course as I dare not drive the car this way.

Other things that I have recently changed have been going to seq inj and burning firmware 3.3 beta for AC idle up. I also downloaded the TS 2.2 beta.

When I switched to seq inj, nothing seemed to need changing as I believe I noticed no difference in my AFR's but again, I really just rev'd the engine in the driveway and didn't do any driving. I observed my normal AFR's and didn't tune anything. Is that about right when going from batch to seq inj?

When I switched to 3.3 beta I had a couple of miscues with the jumpers in my DIYPNP but once figured out it all seemed fine again. Car idled well and AFR's seemed fine.

Now with the seq COP, something does not seem right. Its like Im missing a pot or cap or something, or maybe even a cross connection. I have checked for cross connections but I have yet to find any. So, any suggestions?
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 08:52 AM   #2
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,809
Total Cats: 1,780
Default

what are CBR coils?


you surely added tons of noise with the BIPs
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 09:29 AM   #3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default

2012 Honda CBR 1000 coils.

Assuming the noise is causing the AE to act up, what can I do about it? And why would it cause my fuel to be lean all of a sudden?

Im going to try later in the day to go back to the 01 VVT coils and make sure that the fuel and AE are back to normal. I should just have to take out the jumpers for the high current ignition and that should disable the bip's?
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:00 AM   #4
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,809
Total Cats: 1,780
Default

Just to be clear, CBR coils dont have ignitors?
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:03 AM   #5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default

That is correct. Two wires, 12V and trigger.
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:11 AM   #6
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,809
Total Cats: 1,780
Default

got pics or a schematic on how you wired up your four BIPs?
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:45 AM   #7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default

Jumpered the high current drivers as stated in the documentation, ran S1-4 to DB15 pins 1,2,5,6 out to the corresponding coils. Power to the coils is from the original coil connector coming from ignition switch. Pins 1,2,3 on the DB15 look like **** I know. Half of that is my shitty soldering and the other half is a drop of solder fell on there but there is no cross connection. The DB15 is for the coils and VVTuner, and one wire from my LC1.
Attached Thumbnails
Seq COP install, now false AE and awful AFR's-20130624_093246.jpg   Seq COP install, now false AE and awful AFR's-20130624_093204.jpg  
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:02 PM   #8
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

A couple of things come to mind.
  • You're asking a lot of the ground wires in the original harness. Frankly, Mazda's grounding scheme is kind of marginal stock. You're running a lot more current through the ground wires than stock, especially with addition of the internal ignition drivers.
  • Bike coils are usually CDI. Some CDI coils don't play well with inductive ignition

I'd start by lifting the right most pin, pin # 3, of each BIP out of the pad on the PCB and soldering a wire directly to the leg. This is the ground pin for the BIP. Run the wire from BIP pin 3 directly to the engine. Do this for each of your (4) BIPs. This grounds the BIP directly to the engine, so the high current does not pass through the ECU.

Alternatively, an ignition module can be located completely outside of the ECU. You could use (2) 1.6 ignitors, or one of our QuadSpark modules, or a 4 channel ignitor from something like a SR20DET. Or you can build your own using the BIPs that you have.

Isolating the BIP grounds and/or moving the ignition modules outside of the ECU should fix your noise issues. But I do not know if that is your only problem -- An inductive ignition module may simply not be able to trigger your CDI coils. If that is the case, you will need to install an (expensive) CDI amplifer or go to a different ignition coil solution.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2013, 10:36 PM   #9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default

Ben, huge thanks for the heads up. I will try isolating the BIP's ground.

However, the engine starts and revs. Of course that is just freewheeling in my driveway. So how is it that the CDI coils spark with 12v? Is it that they are not under any real load freewheeling the engine?

And if I were to go with a CD box, does something like a MSD 6al work or am I dreaming? When you say expensive, how expensive?
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2013, 10:59 AM   #10
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,264
Total Cats: 51
Default

Just because they spark does not mean everything is working well.

You could use four MSD 6AL boxes, since each drives only one coil - or some sort of multi-channel CDI, like the ones from M&W. A set of non-CDI coils would be a more cost effective option.
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2013, 07:56 PM   #11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default DIYPNP, BIP373's, and CBR coils a(n unfinished) success

Thanks to Ben and Matt for fingering this out for me. I did as suggested and took the ground pin of the BIP's off the board and ran it solo to the block. No more noise causing TPS signal to rise and fall, and the fuel is more like it should be.

I still have not gotten the ignition amplifier but it is on the way. Thanks for the M&W suggestion but at twice the price of the AEM twin fire I could not reasonably justify the cost difference. The Honda guys seem to use it with great success so I expect nothing less for my application.

Now a question for you guys and I guess an opinion might be all you can offer, is the ignition amplifier completely necessary? I drove the car up and down my street a few times, never getting on it hard or anything, but it was acting fine for the 15 minutes or so I drove it. I ran the DIYPNP with the case on so I was not able to really tell how hot the BIP's were getting but I got the case off maybe three minutes after I shut the car off and they seem to be at the same temperature as the rest of the components. Would running the amplifier greatly cut down the stress on the BIP's? And would it then not be necessary to run external grounds to the BIP's? Also, according to some of the literature on the AEM product, an inductive ignition with a typical coil would make about 25K volts. While using their CD product you would get 50K volts at least. In another life I was an auto mechanic and I seem to remember 25K volts was all that was needed or available from most coils. Is the value of the amplifier to save the coils from overheating as I have read that CDI coils need the higher primary voltage or they fry out?

Let me stop writing as I wouldn't want to **** off Brain with my "wall of text". BTW (and off topic), Brain no luck with getting my A/C idle to resemble yours. I was reading something on another site about a light flywheel not helping matters. Would you think my 949 twin disc make any difference in the matter?
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 08:33 AM   #12
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,809
Total Cats: 1,780
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
Let me stop writing as I wouldn't want to **** off Brain with my "wall of text". BTW (and off topic), Brain no luck with getting my A/C idle to resemble yours. I was reading something on another site about a light flywheel not helping matters. Would you think my 949 twin disc make any difference in the matter?
use the gslender firmware with a/c idle up, if you have the spare i/o's.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 10:01 AM   #13
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

If the coils are sparking well, the CDI box is not needed. I'd take an inductive spark over a CDI spark any day. IMO, the substantially longer duration of the inductive spark is favorable to the very short duration CDI spark, even though the CDI spark is much higher voltage.

CDI is generally a bandaid solution for cars that are dwell limited (think distributor).
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Hollywood, FL
Posts: 523
Total Cats: 18
Default

Ben thanks for bringing up the inductive vs CDI debate. I went and did some research on the subject. As it turns out the CBR coils are inductive according to this ancient thread on another site.

New AEM "COP" Pencil Coils!! - Honda-Tech

Also on there is a link to an even older thread on efi101.com on the inductive/CDI debate which I just started reading.

Then there is this little diddy from AEM which is a retrofit for Honda guys to COP using their "CDI pencil coils" without the CDI box. It says CDI is recommended for over 15 psi.

http://www.aemelectronics.com/Images...%2030-2860.pdf

So it looks like I have the option of running inductive or CDI with these coils. The AEM CDI box brings a bypass that just plugs into the CDI harness and you eliminate the box going to inductive ignition in seconds so I will have a chance to dyno test the ignition pretty easily. I would assume each type of ignition would have its preferred advance settings for optimum results so I hope I have time to mess with it on the dyno.

So if the inductive ignition performs better or the same, it means you could run full sequential COP on a DIYPNP for about $220 for all new parts- drivers, coils, coil connectors, and spark plugs. Or about $600 with the CDI box.
hector is online now   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buzzing from driver side of engine bay? (MS3 install) nick470 MEGAsquirt 7 06-16-2017 02:53 PM
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM
01-05 Fab9 PNP COPs (used) FrankB Miata parts for sale/trade 6 09-30-2015 12:48 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:23 AM.